The Agenda

@fmf said
Would it be an example of the "free gift" of "grace" and undeserved "mercy" if he or she was "saved"? And isn't it up to Jesus? And can't He do whatever He wants? And isn't it presumably what "judgement" is about?

No. That's the answer.
Belief is required....ALONG with works.

Does that properly spell it out for you?

@fmf said
If you can't be bothered to answer the questions you are supposedly 'responding' to, don't use the "Quote" function.

In the future you could do everyone a favor by NOT taking ONE post from someone, picking it apart in 8 different cherry picked quotes, taken not in it's original context, ane replying 8 times.

It is a dishonest way to post!!!

@chaney3 said
That's the answer.

What are the answers to the four questions I asked?

No. No. No. And no?

@chaney3 said
It is a dishonest way to post!!!

Thanks for your advice.

@chaney3 said
"Belief" seems to be required by Jesus, as it states in John 3:16, and the verses provided by KellyJay on page 7.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

This appears to layout one way to be "saved" but ignoring the rest of the NT is monumental cherry-picking.

@chaney3 said
Belief is required....ALONG with works.

Is that what you think John 3:16 says?

@fmf said
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

This appears to layout one way to be "saved" but ignoring the rest of the NT is monumental cherry-picking.

Please see my usage of ALONG with works, in 1st post on this page. Thanks.

To atheists: at minimum, belief is required. Jesus spoke those words, not sure why Rajk wishes to remove the belief 'portion' of salvation.

@chaney3 said
Please see my usage of ALONG with works, in 1st post on this page. Thanks.

To atheists: at minimum, belief is required. Jesus spoke those words, not sure why Rajk wishes to remove the belief 'portion' of salvation.

Christianity is nothing if it's not a code for living and a template for a way to interact with other humans in a morally sound way.

"Belief in Jesus" could mean a range of things, including belief in - or obedience to - His teachings, and living one's life that way, in accordance with Jesus' wishes, wittingly or unwittingly.

If Christianity is only about having to specifically believe some far-fetched unprovable magical thing happened 2,000 years ago [when someone allegedly returned from the dead like they do in umpteen other religions], then I think - from my perspective - as religious dogmas go, it amounts to nothing and sounds like manmade mumbo-jumbo.

Humans who are faithful to Jesus' teachings and believe that the kind of walk-the-walk his teachings prescribe are a righteous way to live and a righteous way to behave and a righteous way to treat others [regardless of whether they engage in or subscribe to all the trappings of retail religion that has sprung from the account of His life] could quite plausibly described as exhibiting "faith" and "belief".

If you want to believe that John 3:16 makes nonsense of this perspective, that is your prerogative. It would seem that KellyJay thinks John 3:16 limits what Jesus is capable of while at the same time it limits the wider message and purpose of Jesus' teaching.

If you are another one of these people who believes you can Think Your Way To Heaven, so be it. The NT seems to me to be a much broader and dynamic thing than that. I think it is about how to live one's life rather than believing in magical things.

@fmf said
Christianity is nothing if it's not a code for living and a template for a way to interact with other humans in a morally sound way.

"Belief in Jesus" could mean a range of things, including belief in - or obedience to - His teachings, and living one's life that way, in accordance with Jesus' wishes, wittingly or unwittingly.

If Christianity is only about having to specif ...[text shortened]... thing than that. I think it is about how to live one's life rather than believing in magical things.

What would make you think that the word "belief" can be equated to obedience, or, to the manner in which one conducts themselves?

The definition of belief states that one accepts that someone or something exists. (This definition makes no claims to conduct)

Maybe atheists would like to think that they're somehow "unwittingly" believing in God based on their conduct, but the evidence in what Jesus said claims otherwise.

In separate instances, Jesus talks about belief, and a way of living, which implies He was talking about different things.

@chaney3 said
Maybe atheists would like to think that they're somehow "unwittingly" believing in God based on their conduct, but the evidence in what Jesus said claims otherwise.

I have never met an atheist who was unwittingly believing in God.

@chaney3 said
What would make you think that the word "belief" can be equated to obedience, or, to the manner in which one conducts themselves?

"Belief in" the righteousness of the message as demonstrated by the way one lives one's life. I don't see any problem with seeing the NT through this prism.

@fmf said
"Belief in" the righteousness of the message as demonstrated by the way one lives one's life. I don't see any problem with seeing the NT through this prism.

Can one believe in that message, without believing in the messenger?

The entire question of belief is summed up by requiring that one believes Jesus existed and that He's the Son of God.

@chaney3 said
Can one believe in that message, without believing in the messenger?

One can live one's life according to a code or a message even if one is unaware of the messenger or messengers. One can live one's life according to Jesus' message even if one does not have a reason to think Jesus was divine.

@chaney3 said
The entire question of belief is summed up by requiring that one believes Jesus existed and that He's the Son of God.

What you've got there sounds like a manmade religion/cult-of-personality to me.

I see the Bible - and its value - as a product of culture and human imagination as it pertains to communal living.

I find the how-to-live parts of the NT admirable for the most part.

Personally, I think Jesus existed but he doesn't need to have lived for the messages and teachings and codes attributed to him to still be valid.

That's a key reason, probably, why Christianity has thrived.

@chaney3 said
Rajk says yes.

Look, I am not a Christian, but I reckon Rajk999's theology provides more hope and more practicality for humanity, which seems like the sort of moral message or instruction that a divine being would deliver.

sonship's and KellyJay's mundane and superstition-and-nothing-else theology is one of profound misanthropy and has the psychology of "Room 101" running through its veins.

Mind you, I am speaking as someone who does not believe in "everlasting life" or "eternal torture".