The Agers Challenge

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
1. not so, the Jews kept a public register of ones family history for genealogy was of
great importance to them,

Do you have any references for this? Do we have surviving records of other people family history?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Do you have any references for this? Do we have surviving records of other people family history?

what is this, the man with no references asking for references from the man who
does? The records were destroyed when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and
torched the temple. Are there references for this? You do believe in the Romans?
that is that the Romans were a world power? You do believe in Titus, that is the
Roman general who eventually sacked the city do you not?

sigh, poor little atheist scrimping around for crusts of bread to berate the ancient
text,

"Herod, who also had to face a challenge to the legitimacy of his
rule, forged for himself a pedigree going back to David, after first
destroying the genealogical records maintained in the Temple (according to
the third-century Christian historian Africanus)." ("Genealogy," Ency. Jud.,
7:381). This is particularly interesting since Herod was a Roman vassal and
Christian Africanus later treats him as a scheming Jew.

http://orion.huji.ac.il/orion/archives/1996a/msg00134.html

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am trying to determine whether you would consider it subject to multiple interpretations if the interpretation you are currently assigning it was proven to not match reality ie if your current interpretation of the prophesy showed the prophesy to have not been fulfilled.

If it was proven to my satisfaction that there was a better
interpretation, I believe I would accept it. But I must see
the interpretation first to be sure.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is this, the man with no references asking for references from the man who
does?

I already gave specific references as you requested. Go back and read through the thread and you will see.

The records were destroyed when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and
torched the temple. Are there references for this? You do believe in the Romans?
that is that the Romans were a world power? You do believe in Titus, that is the
Roman general who eventually sacked the city do you not?

sigh, poor little atheist scrimping around for crusts of bread to berate the ancient
text,
So, it seems you have no references. OK. You just made it up. Thats all I wanted to know.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I already gave specific references as you requested. Go back and read through the thread and you will see.

[b]The records were destroyed when the Romans sacked Jerusalem and
torched the temple. Are there references for this? You do believe in the Romans?
that is that the Romans were a world power? You do believe in Titus, that is the
Roman ge ...[text shortened]...
So, it seems you have no references. OK. You just made it up. Thats all I wanted to know.[/b]

i think anyone reading my post can determine for themselves that there is a glaring
reference right in the middle of it, why you FAIL to discern it, is quite beyond me, its
gives the author, in this instance the historian Africanus, the page from his journal and
the site that provided the reference. How could you miss all that? is it because you
cannot read or need glasses? or you did not want to see it because you then have
nothing to whine about?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Of all the fragments of text which have been found that eventually made the New Testament, how many have been dated to the 1st Century?

None.

Also only a small handful have been dated to the 2nd Century. The vast majority of the text concerning the Gospels which has been found has been dated was written 2-3 hundred years after the life of Jesus.

******BUMPED, IN CASE IT GOT MISSED**********

Of all the fragments of text which have been found that eventually made the New Testament, how many have been dated to the 1st Century?

None.

Also only a small handful have been dated to the 2nd Century. The vast majority of the text concerning the Gospels which has been found has been dated was written 2-3 hundred years after the life of Jesus.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
******BUMPED, IN CASE IT GOT MISSED**********

Of all the fragments of text which have been found that eventually made the New Testament, how many have been dated to the 1st Century?

None.

Also only a small handful have been dated to the 2nd Century. The vast majority of the text concerning the Gospels which has been found has been dated was written 2-3 hundred years after the life of Jesus.

so dear Noobster what is your point?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
i think anyone reading my post can determine for themselves that there is a glaring
reference right in the middle of it, why you FAIL to discern it, is quite beyond me, its
gives the author, in this instance the historian Africanus, the page from his journal and
the site that provided the reference. How could you miss all that?

Because you did not say that it was a reference that supported your claim.

Rather oddly in fact you started by saying the records were destroyed by the romans, then gave a reference which you say suggests the records were destroyed by Herod.

Remember that your original claim was that the Jews in general kept public records of their ancestry. Does your reference support that claim?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Because you did not say that it was a reference that supported your claim.

Rather oddly in fact you started by saying the records were destroyed by the romans, then gave a reference which you say suggests the records were destroyed by Herod.

Remember that your original claim was that the Jews in general kept public records of their ancestry. Does your reference support that claim?

naturally Herod was Roman vassal, who ruled prior to the destruction of Jerusalem by
the Romans. He was ruling at the time of Christ, the Romans never destroyed
Jerusalem until 70CE almost seventy years after he was dead.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
1. not so, the Jews kept a public register of ones family history for genealogy was of
great importance to them, it could have been contested at any time by the Christ's
enemies and yet never was. Stating that its found solely in the Bible is neither here
nor there and is not an adequate proof of lack of inspiration.

2. Point already covere lineage of both parents you make the most
unfounded assertions on the flimsiest of pretexts.

1. not so, the Jews kept a public register of ones family history for genealogy was of
great importance to them, it could have been contested at any time by the Christ's
enemies and yet never was. Stating that its found solely in the Bible is neither here
nor there and is not an adequate proof of lack of inspiration

So you rebut Penguin's point by asserting what he says isn't true because of family records held by the Jews despite the fact you then go on to say such records were destroyed by the romans.

So how do you know Penguin is wrong again??? 😕

Originally posted by Agerg
[b]1. not so, the Jews kept a public register of ones family history for genealogy was of
great importance to them, it could have been contested at any time by the Christ's
enemies and yet never was. Stating that its found solely in the Bible is neither here
nor there and is not an adequate proof of lack of inspiration

So you rebut Penguin's point by ...[text shortened]... such records were destroyed by the romans.

So how do you know Penguin is wrong again??? 😕[/b]

what is it about the testimony of secular historians which testify to the fact that the Jews kept genealogical records that yet evades you dear Agers?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is it about the testimony of secular historians which testify to the fact that the Jews kept genealogical records that yet evades you dear Agers?

my point is: how do you know what was contained wihin those records to assert with any confidence that penguin is wrong?

Originally posted by Agerg
my point is: how do you know what was contained wihin those records to assert with any confidence that penguin is wrong?

because you can look through the Hebrew text, faithfully copied after generation after
generation and see that the Jews were extraordinarily careful with their genealogical
records, why would it be any different in the case of the Christ? Now i might ask on
what basis are you saying that they have been corrupted or not copied faithfully dear
Agers.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
because you can look through the Hebrew text, faithfully copied after generation after
generation and see that the Jews were extraordinarily careful with their genealogical
records, why would it be any different in the case of the Christ? Now i might ask on
what basis are you saying that they have been corrupted or not copied faithfully dear
Agers.

Perhaps the Jews did keep good records - and they were different to the one Matthew presents - why would Matthew make such a fabrication? To keep the fable of magic Jesus alive perhaps and make it look like a prophecy was fulfilled.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
because you can look through the Hebrew text, faithfully copied after generation after
generation and see that the Jews were extraordinarily careful with their genealogical
records, why would it be any different in the case of the Christ? Now i might ask on
what basis are you saying that they have been corrupted or not copied faithfully dear
Agers.

http://babylon-the-great.xanga.com/670346913/item/

“....When Jesus Became God
At the Hand of Constantine

"In order to make the previously despised cult
of the Early Christians acceptable to Constantine,
emperor of Rome - the new (pagan) Church Fathers
had to remove from its teachings certain doctrines
which they knew were objectionable to Constantine.
To accomplish this, certain "correctors" were
appointed, whose task it was to rewrite the Gospels."

….

The Divinity of Christ --
A Doctrine based upon Scriptural "Forgery",
And Spread by Roman Force
"The doctrine that Jesus Christ - the Son of God
was "God -the-son" - was decreed by worldly
and ecclesiastical powers.  Men were forced
to accept it - at the point of the sword or else,
Thus, the error of the trinity was propounded
to the end - that ultimately people believed it
to be the truth.  Thus Christianity became in essence
like Babylonian heathenism, with only a veneer of
Christian names."

….”

...and that is just part of it.