Let's look at number 4...
4. Psalm 132:11 - David's descendent - Matthew 1:1-16
Psalm 132:11The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
Matthew 1:1-161 This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4 Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6 and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,
Abihud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Elihud,
15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.
I have a number of criticisms of this being a fulfilled prophesy:
1. That particular lineage could easily have been put together to match the prophesy by Matthew. Presumably the only versions of the lineage are in the gospels of the disciples, in the bible. All written after the fact by people with a vested interest in ensuring they match the prophesy.
2. It's hard enough now to trace your lineage more than 5 or 6 generations back. Here we have 26 generations listed from David to Jesus. How did they know? What are the chances that the carpenter Joseph had that much knowledge of his family tree. Now it might be that in that culture, knowing your family tree back that far was common but I would like external confirmation of this before I will give it much credence.
3. According to the bible, Joseph was not Jesus father. That was God, the Holy Ghost, or most likely someone else that Mary would rather not admit to. So Jesus is not actually of the line of David. He is the offspring of Mary and an apparition/persons unknown.
4. Jesus never actually ascended to the throne of David.
5. The prophesy does not state that it is talking about Jesus. It could be talking about any of David's descendants, King Soloman for example. At least he was a king. Jesus was neither a king, nor was he even of the fruit of David's body (see 5).
So I think we can see that even if Psalm 132:11 was fulfilled, it was certainly not fulfilled by Jesus!
--- Penguin.
Originally posted by PenguinMary was also a descendant of David as shown by her family tree.
Let's look at number 4...
[b]4. Psalm 132:11 - David's descendent - Matthew 1:1-16
Psalm 132:11The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
[i]Matthew 1:1-161 This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abra ...[text shortened]... Psalm 132:11 was fulfilled, it was certainly not fulfilled by Jesus!
--- Penguin.[/b]
Joseph was what we call today the step-father of Jesus due to marriage.
The marriage of Joseph to Mary made Joseph the legal father of Jesus.
We Christians believe Jesus fulfilled the suffering servant portion of the
prophecies at His first coming and will come again, as He said He would,
to fulfill the conquering King portion of the prophecies. Even so, He was
declared King of the Jews at His crucifixion.
1. not so, the Jews kept a public register of ones family history for genealogy was of
great importance to them, it could have been contested at any time by the Christ's
enemies and yet never was. Stating that its found solely in the Bible is neither here
nor there and is not an adequate proof of lack of inspiration.
2. Point already covered, indeed the fact that a mere carpenter from a backwater
town in Galilee could have influenced men to the extent that he has is a greater
miracle than any recorded in the gospels, as one historian reminds us.
3. Point is pure bumf, Christ is a descendent both through his mother and his
adoptive father or have you failed to note in both genealogies, David son Solomon
in Mathews account and Nathan one his other sons in Josephs lineage recorded in
Luke.
4. Christ stated that his Kingdom is no part of this world, David himself sat on the
kingship of Israel, merely as a representative of God or have you never read,
(1 Chronicles 29:23) . . .And Solomon began to sit upon Jehovah’s throne as king in
place of David his father and to make a success of it, and all the Israelites were
obedient to him.
it takes spiritual comprehension to realise that an eternal and everlasting kingship
as was promised to David through his descendants must of course be of a spiritual
nature and it was in fact not David's throne as you have erroneously asserted, but
Gods. Strange that the inhabitants of Jerusalem recognised Christ as a King in
Davids lineage and was it not for this very reason Pilate put him to death.
5. Again this is erroneous, as if anyone could have fulfilled it, indeed, why did no
one else claimed the right if it could have been anyone?
what has become apparent, that because you people lack accurate details of just
who Christ is, what the Kingship of Israel actual was, and how Christ fulfilled this
prophecy in detail through his lineage of both parents you make the most
unfounded assertions on the flimsiest of pretexts.
Originally posted by Proper KnobIf you look at it mathematically with those 3 probabilities 1/3 rd chance of anyone of those being correct.
Well three possible scenarios for you -
1. She wasn't a virgin and Joseph is the most gullible man in history.
2. It's just a story much like the Greek myths, you don't believe in flying horses do you?
3. It's as the Bible says, Mary a virgin impregnated by the Holy Spirit.
Personally i put 1 and 2 over 3 any day of the week.
Manny
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRobbie, don't forget Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks of years.
1. not so, the Jews kept a public register of ones family history for genealogy was of
great importance to them, it could have been contested at any time by the Christ's
enemies and yet never was. Stating that its found solely in the Bible is neither here
nor there and is not an adequate proof of lack of inspiration.
2. Point already covere ...[text shortened]... lineage of both parents you make the most
unfounded assertions on the flimsiest of pretexts.
This prophecy pinponts the exact time when the Messiah would come
and be cut off (crucified) in the middle of the week. If you are not
familiar with this prophecy, I can explain it. No one after the time of
Jesus could have fulfilled this prophecy. So if Jesus was not the promised
Messiah mentioned, then there will not be a Messiah for the Jews.
Originally posted by RJHindsyes i am familiar with it, but if you would like to explain it, please feel free, our dear
Robbie, don't forget Daniel's prophecy of the seventy weeks of years.
This prophecy pinponts the exact time when the Messiah would come
and be cut off (crucified) in the middle of the week. If you are not
familiar with this prophecy, I can explain it. No one after the time of
Jesus could have fulfilled this prophecy. So if Jesus was not the promised
Messiah mentioned, then there will not be a Messiah for the Jews.
atheist friends need every scrap of spiritual goodness they can get their hands on!
poor things have been running on self certified statements for too long!
Originally posted by RJHindsWhat I want to determine is whether or not it would shake your faith in any way, or whether your response would be to reinterpret the prophesy. If the latter, then the prophesy cannot be considered to have been definitely fulfilled as it is subject to multiple interpretations.
I am not a prophet, so we will just have to wait and see.
Originally posted by twhiteheadDo you believe it is subject to multiple interpretations?
What I want to determine is whether or not it would shake your faith in any way, or whether your response would be to reinterpret the prophesy. If the latter, then the prophesy cannot be considered to have been definitely fulfilled as it is subject to multiple interpretations.
If so what other interpretation do you have for it?
I will consider it to see if it fits.
Originally posted by menace71I don't trust the probability measure you're assigning here.
If you look at it mathematically with those 3 probabilities 1/3 rd chance of anyone of those being correct.
Manny
- There is a 50-50 chance you can click your fingers and turn into an inflammable aardvark - either you can or you can't!
- There is a 50-50 chance you are a human as opposed to an alien - either you are or you aren't!
- There is a 1 in 3 chance that you have orrectly guessed my favourite colour - either you've guessed correctly, you've guessed falsely, or you haven't guessed yet.
- and so on...
In the response you made, there was only a 1 in 3 chance one would *randomly guess* the right answer out of the three. As far as making an considered choice however, they are not equiprobable.
Originally posted by menace71You clearly aren't very good at mathematics. Your probability calculation is only valid if it is assumed that there is an equal chance of each being correct.
If you look at it mathematically with those 3 probabilities 1/3 rd chance of anyone of those being correct.
Manny
If there is no other information regarding a given set of options, then it is reasonable to assume an equal chance. However, as soon as other information becomes available, it should be taken into account.
So in Agergs example:
- There is a 50-50 chance you can click your fingers and turn into an inflammable aardvark - either you can or you can't!
the result is correct if you know nothing about the action he is describing. If however you know what an inflammable aardvark is, you can take that information into account and significantly reduce the probability of you being able to turn into one.
Originally posted by RJHindsI am trying to determine whether you would consider it subject to multiple interpretations if the interpretation you are currently assigning it was proven to not match reality ie if your current interpretation of the prophesy showed the prophesy to have not been fulfilled.
Do you believe it is subject to multiple interpretations?
If so what other interpretation do you have for it?
I will consider it to see if it fits.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieOf all the fragments of text which have been found that eventually made the New Testament, how many have been dated to the 1st Century?
1. not so, the Jews kept a public register of ones family history for genealogy was of
great importance to them, it could have been contested at any time by the Christ's
enemies and yet never was. Stating that its found solely in the Bible is neither here
nor there and is not an adequate proof of lack of inspiration.
2. Point already covere lineage of both parents you make the most
unfounded assertions on the flimsiest of pretexts.
None.
Also only a small handful have been dated to the 2nd Century. The vast majority of the text concerning the Gospels which has been found has been dated was written 2-3 hundred years after the life of Jesus.