The apologetics game!

Originally posted by lemon lime
I did start by saying "Based only on your brief description...", but at the same I'm not ignoring what I've learned from our previous conversations.

To be fair, I should have recognized how anything said at these boards can be taken literally, even to the point of ridiculousness, so I probably should have omitted the word "only" from that first statement. I suppose it all depends on how anyone personally chooses to interpret what is being read.

I interpreted what you said as being the kind of cliched and presumptuous retort that ex-Christians often get from Christians. Several people here have insisted that I was never a Christian, which is ~ of course ~ a bit of a cop out reaction (at least to my way of thinking) to someone who has 'left the fold'.

Originally posted by lemon lime
To be fair, I should have recognized how anything said at these boards can be taken literally, even to the point of ridiculousness, so I probably should have omitted the word "only" from that first statement.

I took ALL of this pretty much literally:

Based only on your brief description here it sounds like you were simply going through the motions. However, aside from what you thought you should be doing as a Christian, what I really wanted to know is did you spend any time actually thinking about God? Did you really believe there is a God, or was your belief a sort of fuzzy acknowledgement of the possibility of God? Did you examine your belief the way you might examine anything else in your life, or to you does 'faith' simply mean you are supposed to believe without any evidence whatsoever? In other words, was your faith actually based on anything other than wishful thinking?

The reason I ask these questions is because your criticism of Christianity, and apparent agreement with atheists about the nature of God himself, sound suspiciously like any argument coming from a life long atheist who has never believed in the existence of God. It doesn't sound like you ever did believe in anything outside of the physical reality we can all touch taste smell see and hear. I'm also guessing that most of your attention (if not all of it) centered around other members of your church and/or Christian community, and not so much on God himself.

Originally posted by FMF
OK, so you didn't see how I rejected your assumption and therefore replied to what you had asked about without going through each little question. Here you go then, here are your questions answered item by item:

lemon lime: "However, aside from what you thought you should be doing as a Christian, what I really wanted to know is did you spend any time actually ...[text shortened]... other words, was your faith actually based on anything other than wishful thinking ?" [b]Yes[/b]

I felt my faith was based on evidence

Evidence is something seen or understood... feelings have nothing to do with it.

It sounds as though you are judging your own past faith, as being something that was only based on a feeling. Evidence is not something felt... it is not a feeling. I seriously doubt you ever said (as a Christian) "I feel my faith is based on evidence".

Originally posted by lemon lime
It sounds as though you are judging your own past faith, as being something that was only based on a feeling.

No. I have used the word "evidence" repeatedly and I have not used the word "feeling" even once. I am saying that I felt my faith was based on evidence. I accepted the Bible as evidence and I thought it justified my faith.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I seriously doubt you ever said (as a Christian) "I feel my faith is based on evidence".

I never said "I feel my faith is based on evidence".

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]I felt my faith was based on evidence

Evidence is something seen or understood... feelings have nothing to do with it.

It sounds as though you are judging your own past faith, as being something that was only based on a feeling. Evidence is not something felt... it is not a feeling. I seriously doubt you ever said (as a Christian) "I feel my faith is based on evidence".[/b]

(for FMF)

I was going to stop here for the evening, but there is something else I was curious about. You were a Christian for almost 30 years... don't feel you need to answer because these are personal questions, but I am curious as to 1) what denomination you belonged to, 2) how old you were when you became a Christian, and 3) were you raised in a Christian home... in other words, were your parents Christians?

I've never belonged to any particular denomination, I was in my early 20's when I took the first step to becoming a Christian, and my parents were not Christians. I knew virtually nothing about Christianity growing up, other than hearing occasional jokes and opinions about Christians (and religion in general).

Originally posted by lemon lime
1) what denomination you belonged to, 2) how old you were when you became a Christian, and 3) were you raised in a Christian home... in other words, were your parents Christians?

[1] Catholic. [2] When I count the 28 years, I do so from about the age of 16 because it was from then on that I can say that it was my own decision to profess the belief ~ I don't count the 'Christian years' prior to that i.e. childhood. [3] Yes. I went to Christian schools. I was still a Christian many years later and after I'd started my own family.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I've also dismissed your assertion that I hold to some self codified superstition. What's good for the goose is good for the gander... unless you really do believe you're entitled to be the beneficiary of a self codified double standard.

What 'double standard'?

Originally posted by FMF
No. I have used the word "evidence" repeatedly and I have not used the word "feeling" even once. I am saying that I felt my faith was based on evidence. I accepted the Bible as evidence and I thought it justified my faith.

No, you did use the word feeling at least once, and that was precisely what I was responding to... I was responding to you using the word 'feeling' and 'evidence' in the same sentence.

I used to think you were intentionally misunderstanding me, but now I'm starting to believe it's not intentional. I think instead you are simply being careless, and not a very thoughtful reader. But hey, that's not so bad... it's better than being intentionally deceptive, right?

But wait a sec... have you always been someone who skims when he reads? Even when you used to read the Bible? Is this why you appear to know so little about the Bible itself, even though at one time you were a Bible believing Christian?

Seriously dude, if I were you I'd quit right now before losing any more ground than you already have... but that's not what you are about, is it? The way to win a losing argument is to just keep going with it, right?

Am I right? Prove me wrong...

Originally posted by lemon lime
No, you [b]did use the word feeling at least once, and that was precisely what I was responding to... I was responding to you using the word 'feeling' and 'evidence' in the same sentence.[/b]

Where? I did not use the word "feeling". I used the word "felt" ~ as I am speaking now, looking back from now at then ~ meaning I "believed".

Originally posted by lemon lime
I used to think you were intentionally misunderstanding me, but now I'm starting to believe it's not intentional. I think instead you are simply being careless, and not a very thoughtful reader. But hey, that's not so bad... it's better than being intentionally deceptive, right?

I haven't used the word "feeling". It is you who is saying I did.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Seriously dude, if I were you I'd quit right now before losing any more ground than you already have... but that's not what you are about, is it? The way to win a losing argument is to just keep going with it, right?

I thought we were just in a discussion that's all. How is anyone "losing ground" here? You've gone from asking personal questions about my religious beliefs in the past ~ seemingly in good faith ~ to General Forum style 'banter' in the space of just one post. What's going on?

Originally posted by FMF
[1] Catholic. [2] When I count the 28 years, I do so from about the age of 16 because it was from then on that I can say that it was my own decision to profess the belief ~ I don't count the 'Christian years' prior to that i.e. childhood. [3] Yes. I went to Christian schools. I was still a Christian many years later and after I'd started my own family.

You didn't say, but I'm assuming one or both of your parents were Catholic as well.

As someone who started fresh, with no religious background or preconceptions, I could never understand much of what takes place in the Catholic church. At one time (about 40 years ago) I recall that I could (literally) count using all of my fingers direct contradictions to Scripture... Jesus saying "call no man your father"; on one occasion Jesus shutting down praise of Mary being the mother of the savior (worshiping Mary); Paul in one of his letters saying do not forbid your priests from marrying. Those are examples just off the top of my head, but at one time I could rattle off 10 examples and could point to chapter and verse. And that was from doing my own research, later on I saw another list someone else had made with nearly 20 examples... although at the time I thought some of those examples where a bit of a stretch. The three examples I gave here on the other hand are clearly direct contradictions to Biblical teaching. And I have never heard a good explanation for this is from any Catholic, not from a teacher or priest or Bible scholar... no Catholic I've talked to about this has ever been able to adequately explain this. From my point of view (I suppose you could call me a purist) there is no excuse for doing the opposite of what Jesus said to do or to not do.

imo no amount of theocratic theatrics can explain why it's okay to ignore and intentionally contradict the teachings of Jesus, and then for that to be called "following Jesus". Following him where? Or more to the point, following him for what reason? To see where he goes and what he does so we can go in the opposite direction and do the opposite of what we see him doing?

I don't mean to offend earnest Catholics here, but I frankly don't get it... and please don't try explaining this to me, because I've spent the past 40 years trying to figure this out and getting "answers" that make no sense.
I am done trying to resolve this.

Originally posted by lemon lime
You didn't say, but I'm assuming one or both of your parents were Catholic as well.

Frankly, as someone who started fresh with no religious background I could never understand much of what takes place in the Catholic church. At one time (about 40 years ago) I recall that I could (literally) count using all of my fingers direct contradictions to Scriptu ...[text shortened]... getting "answers" that make no sense.
I am done trying to resolve this... it can't be resolved.

What does this have to do with what we were talking about?

Originally posted by FMF
What does this have to do with what we were talking about?

I suspected you were a former Catholic, but since you never said so I finally felt the need to ask. Anyway, you ask what does this have to do with what we were talking about?

Ohhh, I don't know... maybe it has something to do with your own particular circumstances. You didn't ask what your particular experience with Christianity has to do with what we were talking about, but that didn't stop you from talking about it. So why do you think my asking questions about something you are already freely talking about might be irrelevant? If what I'm saying, or the questions I'm asking, are not relevant then you wouldn't have opened the door for me to be asking you about your own particular Christian experience.

So here's an idea for you to consider, if you don't feel comfortable with people asking you questions about some of the things you bring up, then maybe you should just keep your big mouth shut and not bring up subjects you don't want to talk about. So how does that sound, does that sound like a good idea to you?

Former Catholics are among the most bitter (and illogical) people I run across at message boards. I suppose I can understand why, but then I've been told by people who grew up with and then rejected Catholicism that Catholicism is Christianity... IS Christianity? What the buggery boo does that mean?