The apologetics game!

Originally posted by lemon lime
Anyway, I think it's fair to say your early experience with religion was very different from mine. And I think you've had too much garbage pushed on you to even consider doing anything other than outright rejection of religion... period. And that's a shame, because (from my point of view) this is very much like tossing the baby out with the bathwater.

Nothing you have ever said has given me a convincing reason to believe that a God figure has revealed Himself to you, or communicated any divine instructions to you, or that any of the claims you ~ and other Christians ~ make about Jesus are true. To use your idiom, I think what you and other Christians active in this forum offer is the "bathwater" that you mentioned and I think that there is no "baby" in the religionist doctrines that you propagate.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I can come to the point that I have a foreknowledge that I have won a chess game before it is finished. However, the other player has the free will to resign or continue playing.

I may have already calculated his best moves, but the other player has the free will to make other than the best moves. However, since I am a much better player, I have the foreknowledge that I will still win even though I know far less than God.

Chess engines don't have free will.

Originally posted by lemon lime
What the buggery boo does that mean?

I think we first need to establish what "buggery boo" means?

Originally posted by divegeester
I think we first need to establish what [b]"buggery boo" means?[/b]

It's illegal in 41 states and gives kids nightmares.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I believe my own initial ignorance of religious practices was a strength and not a weakness, because I could literally focus on what I was seeing in the four gospels and letters of Paul and [b]not be influenced by prior religious teaching. It did however take a very long time for what I had previously believed to stop dominating my thoughts... I was e ...[text shortened]... our boss in this way... 😛


*edits: cleaning up the 'switching gears' divider... that's why![/b]

I'd assume it was a foreigner who didn't speak English and was doing their best to be friendly. Nice image though.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have already explained to you what God meant when He said, "I will harden his heart." I am sorry if you don't have the intelligence to understand it.

A person's free will is not dependent on God's foreknowledge. I can come to the point that I have a foreknowledge that I have won a chess game before it is finished. However, the other player has the fre ...[text shortened]... ter player, I have the foreknowledge that I will still win even though I know far less than God.

You might want to be careful about making statements about other people's intelligence.

The apparent meaning of the statement "I will harden his heart" is that God will prevent the Pharaoh from allowing the release of the Israelites. You are claiming that it has a meaning other than the obvious one. This means that you are not taking this part of the Bible literally, so why do you insist on a literal reading of, for example, the creation as described in Genesis?

Your chess analogy doesn't work. You may have a prediction of the overall result, but you cannot know what will happen with any greater precision. You know what the most logical sequence of moves is, but you cannot know that your opponent will follow them. In fact in a difficult position it is likely that they will make further blunders. Even if the sequence is absolutely forcing to checkmate you cannot know whether or on what move they will resign. You also cannot rule out a blunder of your own which changes the result. God on the other hand knows exactly what is going to happen so what is left of free will?

As an aside free will is a problematic concept even without bringing predestination into it, as has been discussed in other threads in this forum.

Originally posted by DeepThought
You might want to be careful about making statements about other people's intelligence.

The apparent meaning of the statement "I will harden his heart" is that God will prevent the Pharaoh from allowing the release of the Israelites. You are claiming that it has a meaning other than the obvious one. This means that you are not taking this part of th ...[text shortened]... n without bringing predestination into it, as has been discussed in other threads in this forum.

I call it as I see it.

The chess analogy may not work for you, but it does for me because I am a better player. When I reach some endgame positions I know if I have a win. So I can predict the outcome regardless of what my opponent moves.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I call it as I see it.

The chess analogy may not work for you, but it does for me because I am a better player. When I reach some endgame positions I know if I have a win. So I can predict the outcome regardless of what my opponent moves.

You can predict the overall result, but not the exact sequence of moves your opponent will follow.

Also you didn't answer the question, why are you taking a non-literal view here but a literal view of Genesis?

Originally posted by RJHinds
I call it as I see it.

The chess analogy may not work for you, but it does for me because I am a better player. When I reach some endgame positions I know if I have a win. So I can predict the outcome regardless of what my opponent moves.

Are you still having difficulties "visualizing knights' moves"?

Originally posted by DeepThought
You can predict the overall result, but not the exact sequence of moves your opponent will follow.

Also you didn't answer the question, why are you taking a non-literal view here but a literal view of Genesis?

Because it is the way I see it.

Originally posted by FMF
Are you still having difficulties "visualizing knights' moves"?

Yes, not with the first move, but the difficulty increases for me visualizing all the possibilites later in a sequence of moves by the knights.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Yes, not with the first move, but the difficulty increases for me visualizing all the possibilites later in a sequence of moves by the knights.

It's like an L shape, and always is, regardless of one's chess rating.

Originally posted by FMF
It's like an L shape, and always is, regardless of one's chess rating.

Maybe that is my problem. I have been thinking of it like a Y shape.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Maybe that is my problem. I have been thinking of it like a Y shape.

What will your chess rating reach when you get the hang of knights, one wonders.

Originally posted by FMF
It's like an L shape, and always is, regardless of one's chess rating.

A knights entire sphere of influence for one move is more than a simple L shape. So it's actually more useful to see a knight move as circle rather than an L when looking ahead in a game... saves time and effort.