the bible is written in stone

Originally posted by twhitehead
My experience is that a lot of people profess to having beliefs that they are really more or less agnostic about. For example, many people in Africa, are quite comfortable apparently with holding both Christian beliefs and traditional beliefs even when the two contradict each other and even when both contradict what they learn in school.
Also, when it co ...[text shortened]... r a new priest comes along, the Christian will say he believes whatever the priest says is true.

Well, my Christian experience is pretty much confined to north America.
I realise that the Bible is not well received by many, but my study of the scriptures over the last 25 years leads me to conclude that it is reliable as the definitive source for all matters concerning life and living, and I trust it to teach me about the nature of God.
I do not trust another man to interpret it's meaning for me. Although I have a close circle of friends in whom I confide and respect their judgement. We spend time together searching the scriptures for the purpose of growing in the faith.
There are core truths that are universally held by all true believers.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I'm still trying to figure out what your original question was about. If you wanted to know what I believe about salvation, why didn't you just ask in the first place instead of asking, "Is salvation a free gift?", which is dependent on your interpretion of the terms.

Just let me know what you really want to know.

Then do we agree on what salvation is?

I would like to be on the same page about this before I we go any further. I think it will be much easier to proceed if we are in agreement about what salvation is first.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Salvation is of/by/from the Lord, and is what we have that results in eternal life?

Originally posted by josephw
Then do we agree on what salvation is?

I would like to be on the same page about this before I we go any further. I think it will be much easier to proceed if we are in agreement about what salvation is first.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Salvation is of/by/from the Lord, and is what we have that results in eternal life?

From the words of Jesus, I'd have to say that I believe that 'salvation' is being saved from sinning. That living a life of sin is a living 'death' and living free of sin is true life.

Originally posted by EcstremeVenom
society changes and the bible doesnt. i think that the morality in the bible doesnt apply to today. i think people should let go of those morals and make their own, i tried to explain this to my mom but she got pissed. for example, i dont believe that gays are going to hell although i dont believe in hell, if there was a hell, i dont think god would send gays to hell. opinions?

If they are saved, then gays go to heaven just like any other of us sinners saved by grace through faith in our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It's rare to find someone who so consistently misses the point of a conversation.

This isn't even your conversation. Why don't you let Josephw speak for himself?

If you feel you must comment, at least be mature enough to read and comprehend before you do so.

So do you or do you not dispute what I have said ? Or are you going to continue being evasive?

(BTW - If Joseph felt I was trying to speak for him he would have said so , I am speaking for myself and I don't really know at this point if J agrees entirely)

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
From the words of Jesus, I'd have to say that I believe that 'salvation' is being saved from sinning. That living a life of sin is a living 'death' and living free of sin is true life.

So Jesus didn't say anything about eternal life then?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
1 John 1:5-7
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but [b]if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, an ...[text shortened]... Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'[/b]

What you have done here is created a subtle kind of conditionality where there is none. This passage does not say that walking in the light is a condition of forgiveness prior to salvation , as if Gods is saying "once you are walking in light then and only then will I save you" . What it actually is saying is that if a person has been forgiven and saved by God one would expect that a sign of that would be that they would be walking in the light (and not darkness).

In your world of black and white , all or nothing thinking this may seem like a trivial distinction but actually it is subtle but also significant.

1)If a man has been given a life saving kidney transplant then one would expect his health to improve as a sign of a genuine transplant. BUT...

2)this is not the same as saying that a man's health must improve PRIOR to him being considered for a transplant.

What you have done is taken a passage that is refering to 1) and in your head it is saying 2).

The problem is that 2) doesn't really work because it's the wrong way round. If the man has no transplant he cannot get healthy whereas you seem to think that health is a condition of receiving the transplant in the first place.

The point here is that if we were able to walk in the light PRIOR to being cleansed by Jesus then who would need Jesus anyway? Why not just walk in the light and be done with it? Who needs Jesus?

The conditionality you have created is in your own mind but it's understandable that you might interpret it like this because it does require a lot of thought and discernment to figure out the truth.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
From the words of Jesus, I'd have to say that I believe that 'salvation' is being saved from sinning. That living a life of sin is a living 'death' and living free of sin is true life.

Would you say that as "The Christ", Jesus is God's salvation? I mean, without Christ there can be no salvation?

Originally posted by josephw
Would you say that as "The Christ", Jesus is God's salvation? I mean, without Christ there can be no salvation?

Once again, it depends on your definition of terms. It'd really help if you'd ask more clearly defined questions.

I'd like to ask you something. Where is this going? Perhaps you can tell me where you are and where you'd like to go with this.

Originally posted by josephw
I realise that the Bible is not well received by many, but my study of the scriptures over the last 25 years leads me to conclude that it is reliable as the definitive source for all matters concerning life and living, and I trust it to teach me about the nature of God.

It might interest you that I have a Muslim friend who told me the exact same thing about the Quran. I am told by those who have read it, that it is much better written than the Bible as it is all one consistent book and that it has a large part of it which is clear explicit instructions on how to live - including laying down laws etc. I also notice how much more consistent its followers are in their actual lives. (I am currently in Cape Town where there is a large Muslim population).

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Once again, it depends on your definition of terms. It'd really help if you'd ask more clearly defined questions.

I'd like to ask you something. Where is this going? Perhaps you can tell me where you are and where you'd like to go with this.

1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

This is were I'm trying to go. Ultimately.

We can't be of the same mind when we disagree. You keep falling back on the "definition of terms" thing, and I can't seem to satisfy what it is you are looking for. There must be a way to do that, and until we come to an agreement on the definition of terms we will go around and around.

Show me how.

Originally posted by twhitehead
It might interest you that I have a Muslim friend who told me the exact same thing about the Quran. I am told by those who have read it, that it is much better written than the Bible as it is all one consistent book and that it has a large part of it which is clear explicit instructions on how to live - including laying down laws etc. I also notice how mu ...[text shortened]... e in their actual lives. (I am currently in Cape Town where there is a large Muslim population).

I will have to concede that I am basically ignorant of the contents of the Quran. I also have a friend who is Muslim, and we have friendly and engaging conversations about our faiths.

I find, though, a fundamental difference in what we believe. And that is how we differ on how the issue of sin is dealt with by each book.
The Quran, as well as most other religious documents other than the Bible, require that it's adherents perform works for the forgiveness of sins. Whereas, the Bible makes it clear that there is nothing we can "do" to obtain salvation. This is a focal point. It is only in the Bible, as opposed to all other faiths, that we find that it is God Himself who has paid our sins debt on our behalf at the cross.

By the way, I appreciate the civility of our discussion in this thread. It's a welcomed change from the way things have been before. I don't mean with you, but with this forum in general.

Originally posted by josephw
1Pe 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

This is were I'm trying to go. Ultimately.

We can't be of the same mind when we disagree. You keep falling back on the "definition of terms" thing, and I can't seem to satisfy what it is you are looking for. There must be a way to do ...[text shortened]... me to an agreement on the definition of terms we will go around and around.

Show me how.

You acknowledge that the Bible is open to interpretation, yet you ask "yes/no" questions without stating how you are using your terms. I can only think, well, what does he mean by "The Christ"? What does he mean by "God's salvation"? What's up with "I mean, without Christ there can be no salvation?"? Is this a question?

Why don't you try telling me what you believe and ask me where we don't agree?

Originally posted by josephw
I find, though, a fundamental difference in what we believe. And that is how we differ on how the issue of sin is dealt with by each book.
The Quran, as well as most other religious documents other than the Bible, require that it's adherents perform works for the forgiveness of sins. Whereas, the Bible makes it clear that there is nothing we can "do" to obt ...[text shortened]... s, that we find that it is God Himself who has paid our sins debt on our behalf at the cross.

And do you find that to be a self evident truth or is it something you desire? Is the God of the Bible the God you want to believe in, or the God that you think must exist despite your personal preferences?

I realize that the focal point of each religion is different, but too often find people making statements similar to yours which essentially say "my religion is unique" but do not explain why that uniqueness is preferable or more likely to be factual.
For example a Hindu, could quite easily come to you and say "My religion has many gods."

I also hear a disturbing number of people make statements to the effect that they believe what they want to believe regardless of the evidence.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And do you find that to be a self evident truth or is it something you desire? Is the God of the Bible the God you want to believe in, or the God that you think must exist despite your personal preferences?

I realize that the focal point of each religion is different, but too often find people making statements similar to yours which essentially say "m ...[text shortened]... ements to the effect that they believe what they want to believe regardless of the evidence.

what evidence? why do you need evidence in religion? if you have proofs then it is not religion anymore it is fact