09 Oct 07
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Originally posted by epiphinehasIt's no surprise that somebody nuts enough to believe that he casts out demons in his spare time, also believes that no one else knows what they're talking about when they discuss the Bible. Fanatical nutjobs are like that.
[b] I wish you had mentioned this earlier as it was a waste of my time to talk to someone who is deluded.
Truth be told, since you don't have a leg to stand on argumentatively, claiming that I'm deluded is merely an easy way out of our discussion. If you were being honest, which you're not, you would never have begun an argument with me regarding ...[text shortened]... he first place, since you no doubt already consider me deluded for believing in Jesus Christ.[/b]
You actually don't believe in Jesus Christ at all instead believing in some bizarre creature thought up by 20th century "fundies". The idea that no works are required at all is completely un-Biblical as is the idea that once you are "saved" THEN the Holy Spirit causes you to do good works. If this was Jesus' belief, it's rather strange he spent so much time preaching the necessity of good works. After all, it's a totally unnecessary message according to your warped theology.
09 Oct 07
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHAgain, are you serious?
Prior to meeting his ultimate fate, fairness demands that an accounting be taken for how the unbeliever lived his life. God is fair and will do just that thing. A complete record of the unbeliever's life is played. All of his good is counted out. All of his bad is counted out. At the end of the accounting, he has x number of credit and y able rewards in the Bible. Virgins will not be part of the package: no marriage in Heaven.
Fundies use words in ways that are quite remarkable. If God's kangaroo court sounds "fair" to you, you would have loved Berlin City Court in 1938. And the whole idea is bizarre; I know your SuperDuper God has eternity to dick around in but why would his Mightiness engage in such an exercise? If you're going to cast the unbeliever down to Hell whether he ate kittens or rescued Christian babies from burning buildings, what is the point? It's sounds sorta sadistic to me but then again the God you believe in is pretty big on inflicting gratitutious cruelty (ask the Midianite gals) so maybe you're on to something. But why anybody would worship such a monster is beyond me.
09 Oct 07
Originally posted by no1marauderEpiphinehas, I know we discussed this at length before but can you explain how do you account for the fact that the term 'saved by grace' or the word 'grace' or any similar expression, was never even used by Christ.
.... The idea that no works are required at all is completely un-Biblical as is the idea that once you are "saved" THEN the Holy Spirit causes you to do good works. If this was Jesus' belief, it's rather strange he spent so much time preaching the necessity of good works. .....
09 Oct 07
Originally posted by no1marauderOf course good works are necessary. I've never argued that good works, those done in obedience to the gospel of Christ, aren't necessary. What I'm arguing is, nobody can fulfill the Mosaic law perfectly; justification before God cannot be accomplished by obeying God's law. Only faith can justify a man in God's eyes. The "works" which James is talking about, which we've already established, are not the "works" which Paul is talking about. Paul is talking about works according to the Mosaic law, and James is talking about works done according to the law of love, which Christ propounded: "love thy neighbor as thyself." The only reason I continue to argue this point with you is that your misinterpretation of scripture leads to such a deadly error, an error which may cause one to conclude that we can somehow find justification in God's eyes apart from faith. A person without trust in the Lord cannot expect to receive anything from Him, no matter what they do.
It's no surprise that somebody nuts enough to believe that he casts out demons in his spare time, also believes that no one else knows what they're talking about when they discuss the Bible. Fanatical nutjobs are like that.
You actually don't believe in Jesus Christ at all instead believing in some bizarre creature thought up by 20th centur ...[text shortened]... orks. After all, it's a totally unnecessary message according to your warped theology.
09 Oct 07
Originally posted by Rajk999If Christ used the word "Grace" in reference to Himself, it would have been self-serving. It is the Father's job to glorify Him, not Himself. God exalts the humble.
Epiphinehas, I know we discussed this at length before but can you explain how do you account for the fact that the term 'saved by grace' or the word 'grace' or any similar expression, was never even used by Christ.
Why did Christ have to die? Because if Christ didn't die, then we would all still be in our sin (all those who believe in Him). God's grace - God's unmerited favor - is poured out through Christ, for the forgiveness of sins and for the power to walk in newness of life.
Christ's sacrifice and our faith in His sacrifice are central to God's plan. How could it be otherwise? Can we add anything to the perfection of what Christ accomplished for us on the cross? God forbid.
How could anyone rejoice in Christ, as God commands (due to our being written in the Book of Life), if our assurance for salvation depended on how well we obeyed God's law in our own power?
Works-based salvation only gives rise to a false confidence, self-glorifying rather than glorifying to God. Whereas faith in the finished work of Christ is what causes people to truly rejoice and give God glory! It is only that kind of faith which bears the fruit of good works which James speaks of.
10 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasEXCELLENT reply once again.
If Christ used the word "Grace" in reference to Himself, it would have been self-serving. It is the Father's job to glorify Him, not Himself. God exalts the humble.
Why did Christ have to die? Because if Christ didn't die, then we would all still be in our sin (all those who believe in Him). God's grace - God's unmerited favor - is poured out thro ...[text shortened]... t is only that kind of faith which bears the fruit of good works which James speaks of.
10 Oct 07
Originally posted by Rajk999I got this one, Epi. The Apostle Paul said it. And that is good enough.
Epiphinehas, I know we discussed this at length before but can you explain how do you account for the fact that the term 'saved by grace' or the word 'grace' or any similar expression, was never even used by Christ.
10 Oct 07
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Originally posted by Rajk999Sometimes it seems like "Christianity" is a lot like "Smooth Jazz". Smooth Jazz is jazz-like, but in reality the jazz has largely been processed out of it. Christianity is Christ-like, but but in reality Christ has largely been processed out of it. In both cases, the essence has been lost in an effort to make it more superficially appealing.
But Christ did not say it. You should at least wonder why.
10 Oct 07
Originally posted by Rajk999Christ did not say the word, "Grace," but nevertheless God's grace is what He came to earth to give any lost sinner who dares to trust in Him.
But Christ did not say it. You should at least wonder why.
Please consider this passage carefully:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:12-17).
Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ...
10 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThis coming from someone who doesn't believe in or know Jesus in the first place. If you're insinuating that "Grace" is something introduced to Christianity "later" by dubious people seeking to water-down the gospel of Christ, then you obviously haven't the slightest inkling Who He really is.
Sometimes it seems like "Christianity" is a lot like "Smooth Jazz". Smooth Jazz is jazz-like, but in reality the jazz has largely been processed out of it. Christianity is Christ-like, but but in reality Christ has largely been processed out of it. In both cases, the essence has been lost in an effort to make it more superficially appealing.
Superficially appealing? Don't you remember your argument regarding Christ's saying, "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad"? (Matthew 12:30). I maintained that Christ meant what He said; that because Christ is holy, by His very nature He is divisive - you are either with Him or against Him. While you maintained that Christ himself does not demand all or nothing allegiance, rather it is the prideful Christians who do so; and that belief in the man Jesus and allegiance to His name isn't even necessary at all.
In light of this, tell me, who intends to water-down Christ's message and make the gospel more superficially appealing? If we'd have it your way, Jesus Christ's sacrifice would be meaningless.
10 Oct 07
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Originally posted by epiphinehasYou certainly like to read a lot into things.
This coming from someone who doesn't believe in or know Jesus in the first place. If you're insinuating that "Grace" is something introduced to Christianity "later" by dubious people seeking to water-down the gospel of Christ, then you obviously haven't the slightest inkling Who He really is.
Superficially appealing? Don't you remember your argument ealing? If we'd have it your way, Jesus Christ's sacrifice would be meaningless.
What I've been saying and what I'm continuing to say that you can't seem to wrap your mind around is that "believing in" Jesus means following his teachings. That merely saying "I believe" or performing whatever rituals you deem important doesn't constitute "believing in" the teachings of Jesus. If one truly "believes in" the teachings of Jesus, one follows them.
What constitutes "allegiance"? Pledging your allegiance or actually following his teachings? Are you "with him" by saying you are "with him" or are you "with him" by following his teachings?
From what I can tell "Christianity" has largely become selling the concept of getting eternal salvation for crying 'Lord, Lord'. When I read the words of Jesus, I have to believe that he is asking people to follow his teachings: to live a life based in love, compassion, justice, etc.
1 John 2:3 -6:
By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
11 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneFirst things first. God has a proper order to salvation. Faith and justification come first. Good works and sanctification second.
You certainly like to read a lot into things.
What I've been saying and what I'm continuing to say that you can't seem to wrap your mind around is that "believing in" Jesus means following his teachings. That merely saying "I believe" or performing whatever rituals you deem important doesn't constitute "believing in" the teachings of Jesus. If one trul ...[text shortened]... ides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/b]
"Believing in" Jesus does not mean following His teachings. The Greek word for "believe" is pisteuo, which means, "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially ones spiritual well-being to Christ), to trust, trust to or in, put faith in, rely on, believe in" (Strongs #4100).
Let's clarify our terms: when I speak of "faith in" or "believing in" Jesus Christ, I am not talking about an empty profession unless I distinguish it as such; rather, I use "faith" or "believing" in their original Greek sense, i.e., referring to a genuine, sincere trust in the gospel of Jesus Christ: "...if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (Rom. 10:9).
Why is it so important to have faith? One significant reason is, without faith God receives none of the glory for our works. If we could earn our way into heaven, then we wouldn't have to rejoice in the Lord, nor would we have to thank Him, glorify His name, nor praise Him. Why? Because we didn't need Him. This is contrary to everything Christ seeks to teach us by His example of complete trust and dependency upon the Father.
Everyone must begin from, and remain in, a state of total dependence on the Father for everything, "The just shall live by faith" (Rom. 1:17). We are to be dependent on the Lord for our righteousness, for the power to overcome sin, for our well being, for wisdom, for our works, for our eternal life, etc., - everything. We rejoice in the Lord and give him thanks for everything, knowing the inheritance which awaits us in heaven and the presence of the Holy Spirit alive in our hearts right now, sanctifying us holy. Jesus said, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly" (John 10:10), "I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).
Are you beginning to see the importance of faith? Its preeminence? When God declares a person righteous, it's a done deal. It's in the past. The future is sealed. Still have doubts? Carefully read the following passage (please) and note what is stated in the past tense:
"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (by grace ye are saved), and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:4-9).
When I read this passage, I thank the Lord, because I know, by faith, that everything in that passage is God's promise to me, i.e., I've been "quickened... together with Christ," and I already "sit... in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." Praise God! "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith" (Heb. 10:22). It is by such assurance that a Christian is made to rejoice:
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God" (Rom. 5:1-2).
First things first. Faith and justification come first. Good works and sanctification second. All who have genuine faith in Jesus Christ (those who are Christ's sheep) are provided with special works which the Lord prepares in advance: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Eph. 2:10). These works are the works done in the power of the Holy Spirit: "God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people" (2 Cor. 6:16).
Following Jesus, i.e., living in complete dependence on the Father, is only possible for a born-again person, who has repented and who has wholeheartedly received Jesus Christ as Savior. Faith is the basis upon which a righteous life stands. Faith is the root; good works are the fruit. Faith is preeminent. Don't neglect it.