The Boundaries of Reality

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Look at your words for a moment, and try to read them as a non-believer must read them...do you still think you deserve to be taken seriously?

Do you think God wants his followers to be talking about these things with non-believers, effectively ruining their credibility in the process?

I would think that if God sanctions this speaking in tongues/ca ...[text shortened]... e would want you folks to keep it to yourselves to avoid marginalizing the entire belief system.

If a non-believer wishes to sincerely discuss the gifts of the Spirit, then I don't see why a Christian shouldn't give an appropriate response. It's not like the gifts of the Spirit aren't in the word of God for all to see anyway.

True, believers aren't supposed to speak in tongues in the presence of non-believers (due to possible marginalization), but a discussion concerning the various gifts is not out of the question.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
If a non-believer wishes to sincerely discuss the gifts of the Spirit, then I don't see why a Christian shouldn't give an appropriate response. It's not like the gifts of the Spirit aren't in the word of God for all to see anyway.

True, believers aren't supposed to speak in tongues in the presence of non-believers (due to possible marginalization), but a discussion concerning the various gifts is not out of the question.

During my years as a Xtian I saw people speak in tongues.
Some of them just babbled incoherently.
Other times some elder would say they were speaking Aramaic, but, you know, how the F would anyone know since no one present *spoke* that dead language. So, that really just counts as babble.

I've been around people that said the cast out demons.
It took more than one:
one person had to have the gift of "naming demons"
another the gift of "seeing demons"
and yet another to command the demon out of the subject.

There's never any physical evidence.
And I'm not blind enough to say that spirits do not exist.

However, the theatrics with which church goers will go to persist their fantastical ideas is pretty amazing.

Knight -- Why would a xtian be against Chi? I was unaware that being a Xtian meant you had to be a blind, deaf-mute, but in your case I suppose that is the very definition of "true Christian".

Ep-You speak as if there is some high society amongst the believers. I've been there and there's nothing high about it. A bunch of desperate fools huddling with anyone who will share in their delusion and ignoring anyone that challenges them to think rationally.

If you just stop and think, or maybe submit yourself to psychoanalysis by a Jungian, maybe you'll be able to see a path to a real Truth.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Yes, I am quite serious. And your incredulity doesn't surprise me.

It shouldn't. I wish you had mentioned this earlier as it was a waste of my time to talk to someone who is deluded. I rarely chat with people who claim to have been abducted by aliens and I see no reason to have a serious discussion with someone who is equally nuts.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Despite Paul's claims, nowhere in the Synoptic Gospels does Jesus claim that first we profess faith, THEN we receive the Holy Spirit, and THEN we start doing good works. We shall be judged at Judgment Day by what we have done. Matthew 25:31-46. This would be unnecessary IF those who going to go to Heaven had already been declared "righteous"; there would be no need for a Judgment Day at all.

Adding to your other errors, your bill-of-lading style of intrepretation has rendered the Judgment Seat of Christ a complete mess. All unbelievers will be judged according to their works, since their names are missing from the Book of Lives. All believers are judged for their works for the purpose of rewards.

Once the records have been revealed, the first group is cast into Hell for their lack of perfect righteousness--- regardless of their works. The second group has already been apprised of their eternal fate: for possession of perfect righteousness, imputed at the moment of salvation, each and every member of the second group inherits eternal life. The judgment they endure is strictly for increased rewards, directly resulting from their spiritual growth.

Originally posted by mdhall
During my years as a Xtian I saw people speak in tongues.
Some of them just babbled incoherently.
Other times some elder would say they were speaking Aramaic, but, you know, how the F would anyone know since no one present *spoke* that dead language. So, that really just counts as babble.

I've been around people that said the cast out demons.
It took m ...[text shortened]... to psychoanalysis by a Jungian, maybe you'll be able to see a path to a real Truth.

If you just stop and think, or maybe submit yourself to psychoanalysis by a Jungian, maybe you'll be able to see a path to a real Truth.
Hmmm... sounds like someone has a messiah complex, out trying to save the world.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Adding to your other errors, your bill-of-lading style of intrepretation has rendered the Judgment Seat of Christ a complete mess. All unbelievers will be judged according to their works, since their names are missing from the Book of Lives. All believers are judged for their works for the purpose of rewards.

Once the records have been revealed, the ...[text shortened]... t they endure is strictly for increased rewards, directly resulting from their spiritual growth.

Freaky: All unbelievers will be judged according to their works

Freaky: the first group [the unbelievers] is cast into Hell for their lack of perfect righteousness

Huh? Clarence Thomas could do that judging.

What "extra rewards" are available in Heaven? 77 virgins?

Originally posted by mdhall
During my years as a Xtian I saw people speak in tongues.
Some of them just babbled incoherently.
Other times some elder would say they were speaking Aramaic, but, you know, how the F would anyone know since no one present *spoke* that dead language. So, that really just counts as babble.

I've been around people that said the cast out demons.
It took m ...[text shortened]... to psychoanalysis by a Jungian, maybe you'll be able to see a path to a real Truth.

Ep-You speak as if there is some high society amongst the believers. I've been there and there's nothing high about it. A bunch of desperate fools huddling with anyone who will share in their delusion and ignoring anyone that challenges them to think rationally.

Frankly, mere past involvement in Christianity doesn't give you any credibility in this matter. There are many people who profess a false faith in Jesus Christ and who inevitably fall away from the faith: "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19). Considering the gift of the Holy Spirit first requires faith, it's really no surprise that you've never been able to discern what is of God's Spirit and what is not.

Of course there are "Christians" who walk after the flesh, pretending to know Aramaic or some other language, like you describe, and who go to great lengths to convince themselves and others that God's Spirit is really present and working through them (when He's really not). People like that are born out of the Pentecostal movement, which says that you aren't saved unless you speak in tongues. The result of that kind of false teaching is emotionalism and mayhem; everyone trying in their own power to manifest what only God can do. Such delusion is borne out of the desperate attempt to prove to themselves (most of all) and to others that they are indeed "true" Christians.

I don't doubt your description of the church you were involved with; I once attended a similar church. However, were you to have had a genuine faith in Jesus Christ, you would have been able to discern what was of the flesh and what was of the Spirit. That is what I did and I left that church. The Lord led me to a different church where the people truly waited on the Lord instead of forcing things in the flesh.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Freaky: All unbelievers will be judged according to their works

Freaky: the first group [the unbelievers] is cast into Hell for their lack of perfect righteousness

Huh? Clarence Thomas could do that judging.

What "extra rewards" are available in Heaven? 77 virgins?

Prior to meeting his ultimate fate, fairness demands that an accounting be taken for how the unbeliever lived his life. God is fair and will do just that thing. A complete record of the unbeliever's life is played. All of his good is counted out. All of his bad is counted out. At the end of the accounting, he has x number of credit and y number of debit. That tally is compared to the absolute righteousness of God. Regardless of how big that x number is or even how small the y number is, the unbeliever's righteousness does not equal the necessary righteousness demanded for sharing in God's presence.

What "extra rewards" are available in Heaven? 77 virgins?
You can read all about the available rewards in the Bible. Virgins will not be part of the package: no marriage in Heaven.

Originally posted by no1marauder
It shouldn't. I wish you had mentioned this earlier as it was a waste of my time to talk to someone who is deluded. I rarely chat with people who claim to have been abducted by aliens and I see no reason to have a serious discussion with someone who is equally nuts.

I wish you had mentioned this earlier as it was a waste of my time to talk to someone who is deluded.

Truth be told, since you don't have a leg to stand on argumentatively, claiming that I'm deluded is merely an easy way out of our discussion. If you were being honest, which you're not, you would never have begun an argument with me regarding faith vs. works in the first place, since you no doubt already consider me deluded for believing in Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b] I wish you had mentioned this earlier as it was a waste of my time to talk to someone who is deluded.

Truth be told, since you don't have a leg to stand on argumentatively, claiming that I'm deluded is merely an easy way out of our discussion. If you were being honest, which you're not, you would never have begun an argument with me regarding ...[text shortened]... he first place, since you no doubt already consider me deluded for believing in Jesus Christ.[/b]

Well, Epi, I think you’re deluded; I think Freaky is, too. On the flip side, you both think I’m deluded. I take no umbrage at that: I think it’s an accurate description of how we all see it at bottom. Nothing to (as Freaky once said) “lose my inner Buddha” over.

Freaky and I have reached the same impasse so many times, neither of us can work up much of a sweat over the arguments anymore. I’ve noticed that you and I can’t anymore either: it’s like starting a game of chess already knowing what the final position on the board will be (stalemate), and most of the moves in between to boot.

I’m going to go do some Tai Chi and chi gung, and clear things out a bit. Get the chi rockin’ through the meridians.

Ya’ll be well now, heah?

________________________________________

Note: Lest I be misunderstood, I’m satisfied taking “chi” as a useful tag for certain neuro-physiological processes, and the meridians as “pathways of effect” rather than actual “channels” of any physical kind. In other words, I don’t need to “believe in the chi.” Nevertheless, the chi will rock and roll... 🙂

Originally posted by TheSkipper
Look at your words for a moment, and try to read them as a non-believer must read them...do you still think you deserve to be taken seriously?

Do you think God wants his followers to be talking about these things with non-believers, effectively ruining their credibility in the process?

I would think that if God sanctions this speaking in tongues/ca ...[text shortened]... e would want you folks to keep it to yourselves to avoid marginalizing the entire belief system.

Do you think God wants his followers to be talking about these things with non-believers, effectively ruining their credibility in the process?
------SKIPPER--------

If God doesn't exist then it won't matter anyway. If he does exist and these things are real then how could their credibilty be ruined? What happened to me was real , believe it or not.

On one hand non-believers want God to be real and for us to show you how he is not some comforting "myth" and then when we try to talk about God's reality you start complaining. Please make your mind up.

Originally posted by vistesd
Well, Epi, I think you’re deluded; I think Freaky is, too. On the flip side, you both think I’m deluded. I take no umbrage at that: I think it’s an accurate description of how we all see it at bottom. Nothing to (as Freaky once said) “lose my inner Buddha” over.

Freaky and I have reached the same impasse so many times, neither of us can ...[text shortened]... r words, I don’t need to “believe in the chi.” Nevertheless, the chi will rock and roll... 🙂

There is a Kung Fu Grandmaster in town here by the name of, Keychun Song, who is a devout Christian. My Father-in-law used to train under him and recommended him for chiropractic work and acupuncture. Grandmaster Song performs and teaches Tai Chi without the least disturbance to His faith in Jesus Christ. Christ did create the body, after all. 🙂

I don't think you're deluded, vistesd. I've always found you eminently reasonable and rational. I cannot blame you for lacking the knowledge that comes by faith in Jesus Christ, if you have no faith in Jesus Christ, can I? You are far from being deluded, in my opinion, I consider you instead to be merely lacking in faith.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Do you think God wants his followers to be talking about these things with non-believers, effectively ruining their credibility in the process?
------SKIPPER--------

If God doesn't exist then it won't matter anyway. If he does exist and these things are real then how could their credibilty be ruined? What happened to me was real , believe it or no ...[text shortened]... en when we try to talk about God's reality you start complaining. Please make your mind up.

So, you do not believe that, as part of the public face of christianity, you have any responsibility to not sound like a crazy person?


I'm just saying, you may want to wait 'till you have people pretty well locked in to this Christianity thing before you go bonkers with the demons and tongues. Perhaps a public forum on a chess website is not the best place to talk about what goes on in the inner sanctum, so to say.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
So, you do not believe that, as part of the public face of christianity, you have any responsibility to not sound like a crazy person?


I'm just saying, you may want to wait 'till you have people pretty well locked in to this Christianity thing before you go bonkers with the demons and tongues. Perhaps a public forum on a chess website is not the best place to talk about what goes on in the inner sanctum, so to say.

It's not a secret. Everything is right there in the word of God.

Originally posted by TheSkipper
So, you do not believe that, as part of the public face of christianity, you have any responsibility to not sound like a crazy person?


I'm just saying, you may want to wait 'till you have people pretty well locked in to this Christianity thing before you go bonkers with the demons and tongues. Perhaps a public forum on a chess website is not the best place to talk about what goes on in the inner sanctum, so to say.

So, you do not believe that, as part of the public face of christianity, you have any responsibility to not sound like a crazy person? SKIPPER


But the whole thing is crazy anyway. I mean we're following a carpenter who died on a cross and then came back to life. There's no way out of it. There is no such thing as "sensible" Christianity , the deal is that Jesus is shocking, radical and in many ways the antithesis of the "world". "Normal " Christianity does not exist really.

Either I am insane for following some invisible non existent spaghetti monster or you are insane for allowing the god of this world to keep you away from the living Christ.

I wonder whether you have an image of "casting out demons " that invokes Harry Potter and the like. If you do , it's not like that from what I have heard.