The Boundaries of Reality

Originally posted by no1marauder
This fundie version doesn't explain James 2:14 or Matthew 25: 31-46.

James 2:14: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? [b]can that faith save him?

Of course the last is a rhetorical question. Faith alone can't save you according to James which contradicts your opinion i.e. "A person is saved the moment they believe in Jesus Christ".[/b]

Read James 2:14 again. James is distinguishing between a true faith and a false faith: "can that faith save him?" As in, is a faith which produces no works genuine faith? Clearly it's not about works, but having a genuine faith to begin with.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You made the following claim:
[b]If you are right then how on earth was Jesus able to grant salvation to the thief on the cross next to him simply on the basis of his faith in him. I seem to remember him saying something like " your faith has saved you" ...One could ask what does "believeth on him" mean in the context of the thief. You may be right in wh ...[text shortened]... not just when it doesn't get in the way of the desires of the self.

I'd have to believe that he has yet to transform his heart. Think Of One

And how long are you going to give him before he "passes the test"? How much humility does he need? If he professes faith in christ then the Bible says he has started that journey and God will see his transformation through to the end however long it takes. He is sealed in the Holy Spirit. BUT according to you he has to pass a certain benchmark before he can claim salvation?


BTW...it's God who transforms hearts .

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You made the following claim:
[b]If you are right then how on earth was Jesus able to grant salvation to the thief on the cross next to him simply on the basis of his faith in him. I seem to remember him saying something like " your faith has saved you" ...One could ask what does "believeth on him" mean in the context of the thief. You may be right in wh ...[text shortened]... not just when it doesn't get in the way of the desires of the self.

I guess if we're going to 'stick to what Christ said', we'll have to look at Luke 23:43: "And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

So we're left without knowing why Jesus said this.
---Tof ONE----


You are right , I got my quotes mixed up with another passage. However , the principle is there. We know that the thief just said remember me when you come to your kingdom and we also have the comparison with the other guy on the other cross who did not believe Jesus was "the christ". The direct implication is that the thief was entering paradise on the basis of acknowledging Jesus was who he said he was.

We are not left without knowing. If you think we are I would encourage you to speculate.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You made the following claim:
[b]If you are right then how on earth was Jesus able to grant salvation to the thief on the cross next to him simply on the basis of his faith in him. I seem to remember him saying something like " your faith has saved you" ...One could ask what does "believeth on him" mean in the context of the thief. You may be right in wh ...[text shortened]... not just when it doesn't get in the way of the desires of the self.

The boundaries are anything but 'arbitrary'. Just do what Jesus asks and follow Him. And not just when it doesn't get in the way of the desires of the self.

---think of one----

I have had a lightbulb moment here. The reason why you are hard to argue with on this issue is that you are absolutely right (in one way) . There are loads of exhortations from christ to humbly follow his ways and for faith not to be just a silly badge that one wears arbitarily. It HAS to mean something . Many christians don't always take their faith seriously enough or it is a nominal thing. You have a very very important point to make and it is directly in line with biblical teaching which is why you can find loads of scripture to back it up.

NOW...the problem is that the worst error is one that is based on a real truth. Think of One you speak the truth ...BUT....and this is so important to understand....despite the fact that what you are saying is right the bit where it goes wrong is that the exhortations to carry your cross and follow christ humbly etc etc and all the other stuff are NOT meant to cut across the equally valid truth of salvation via faith in christ as God's free gift. You are using one truth to deny another equal truth by making them opponents in your mind when infact they need not be. Do you get it?

Now , what I want to know is this . All these christians and other people who you deem are not saved and not humbly denying their ego and following christ , do you think they are inferior to you? Or are they your equal in God's sight?

Originally posted by no1marauder
This fundie version doesn't explain James 2:14 or Matthew 25: 31-46.

James 2:14: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? [b]can that faith save him?

Of course the last is a rhetorical question. Faith alone can't save you according to James which contradicts your opinion i.e. "A person is saved the moment they believe in Jesus Christ".[/b]

James 2:14: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?

Of course the last is a rhetorical question. Faith alone can't save you according to James which contradicts your opinion i.e. "A person is saved the moment they believe in Jesus Christ MARAUDER

Incorrect-- James 2:14:14 does not say that faith cannot save a man. It is simply and validly pointing out that there are two types of faith , dead faith and saving faith. However , you have gone on to then assume that it's saying that faith alone is not enough. The Bible says that if one truely has faith in christ one is saved. Then James simply points out that if one's faith is true then it will be consistent with how one lives one's life. It's quite simple.If the faith is real then works will follow anyway.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Read James 2:14 again. James is distinguishing between a true faith and a false faith: "can that faith save him?" As in, is a faith which produces no works genuine faith? Clearly it's not about works, but having a genuine faith to begin with.

That's not what the man said. As usual, you're simply reading with your pre-conceived blinders on. Besides, you said someone was saved as soon as they believed in Jesus Christ; James says you are wrong. Romans 10:9, which you are so fond of, says you are saved whether you do any works at all.

Originally posted by knightmeister
James 2:14: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?

Of course the last is a rhetorical question. Faith alone can't save you according to James which contradicts your opinion i.e. "A person is saved the moment they believe in Jesus Christ MARAUDER

Incorrect-- James 2:14:14 doe ne lives one's life. It's quite simple.If the faith is real then works will follow anyway.

I didn't say it; James did. Then you used an eraser.

EDIT: I suggest you read ALL of the first two chapters of James.
Consider these passages: 1:27 27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

2:24 24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

Originally posted by no1marauder
That's not what the man said. As usual, you're simply reading with your pre-conceived blinders on. Besides, you said someone was saved as soon as they believed in Jesus Christ; James says you are wrong. Romans 10:9, which you are so fond of, says you are saved whether you do any works at all.

"And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith” (James 2:23).

Obviously James is not contending with the doctrine of justification by faith; James quotes the exact same Old Testament passage that Paul does in Romans chapter 4 (above). As everyone knows, Abraham was declared righteous because of his faith, and neither Paul nor James are teaching something contradictory to the OT teaching on justification. Paul shows in Romans 4 that Abraham was declared righteous before any of his works become apparent:

"Well, we have been saying that Abraham was counted as righteous by God because of his faith. But how did this happen? Was he counted as righteous only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised! Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised" (Romans 4:9-11).

Regarding this, James (2:23) says, "it happened just as the scriptures say... God counted him righteous because of his faith." Paul and James (and the OT) are agreed on this point.

Once this fact is established, it is clear that James is examining two kinds of faith: genuine faith (which produces good works) and a false faith (which doesn't produce good works). One is merely a mental acknowledgment of God's existence ("...even the demons believe this..." - James 2:19), and the other is a sincere and heartfelt trust in Jesus Christ ("...If thou believest with all thine heart..." - Acts 8:37).

According to which type of faith do you think God declares a person righteous?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous [b]because of his faith” (James 2:23).

Obviously James is not contending with the doctrine of justification by faith; James quotes the exact same Old Testament passage that Paul does in Romans chapter 4 (above). As everyone knows, Abraham was d 7).

According to which type of faith do you think God declares a person righteous?[/b]

Your attempts to cherry pick James 2 so that it agrees with your preconceived ideas is reprehensible. What could be clearer than the two sentences preceding James 2:23?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;

A faith can't be "made perfect" by your doctrine; it's either "genuine" or not.

EDIT: Not sure what version of the Bible you're using' probably one of the recent fundie re-writes. The American Standard Version quotes James 2:23 as follows (and it's really not kosher to use ..... in the middle of a Bible verse):

23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.

And then:

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

25 And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

EDIT: I just checked every version of the Bible given at Biblegateway.com for James 2:23 and every one ended with "God's friend" or "friend of God"; not a single one stated "because of his faith". What version are you using?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Your attempts to cherry pick James 2 so that it agrees with your preconceived ideas is reprehensible. What could be clearer than the two sentences preceding James 2:23?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith ma od"; not a single one stated "because of his faith". What version are you using?

"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6).

Believing in the Lord means the same as having faith in the Lord. Nobody is rewriting the bible. Both Paul and James are quoting from Genesis 15:6 (above). Read it and weep. 🙂

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6).

Believing in the Lord means the same as having faith in the Lord. Nobody is rewriting the bible. Both Paul and James are quoting from Genesis 15:6 (above). Read it and weep. 🙂

Read this and weep:

James 2:21: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?

I notice you dodged the question on James 2:23. Where did you find your version with "God counted him righteous because of his faith"? Or did you just make it up?

EDIT: I think I see; you were using a cut and paste without attribution (a common fundie tactic here). Maybe you should take a Bible out rather than rely on cliff notes.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Your attempts to cherry pick James 2 so that it agrees with your preconceived ideas is reprehensible. What could be clearer than the two sentences preceding James 2:23?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, [b]and by works was faith ma ...[text shortened]... od"; not a single one stated "because of his faith". What version are you using?

Marauder , the obvious conclusion you must draw then is that the Bible completely contradicts itself and that James is iether completely wrong or the OT is completely wrong about faith. HHMMM....let's see...I wonder if it could be more subtle than that.

All you are doing is playing one truth off against another in the hope that they will look contradictory (because that's your agenda) , when infact they are addressing different problems. It's a simple matter of context , what you call cherry picking is infact informed intelligent reading.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Read this and weep:

James 2:21: 21 [b]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?

I notice you dodged the question on James 2:23. Where did you find your version with "God counted him righteous because of his faith"? Or did you just make it up?

EDIT: I think I see; you were usin ...[text shortened]... common fundie tactic here). Maybe you should take a Bible out rather than rely on cliff notes.[/b]

Read this and weep:

James 2:21: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
----------marauder---------


Let me give you a thought experiment. My 9 year old daughter plays football (soccer) and she is always going for slide tackles and getting left on her backside. I corrected her one day and told her that she needed to stay on her feet and channel the attacker down the wings. She played a match and was very ineffective and didn't tackle. They lost 0-3. After the match I asked her what went wrong and why she wasn't tackling . "Why didn't you get stuck in?!" I said. She complained vociferously ," you said 'stay on your feet' and I did as you said!!!" she said indignantly.

Question- What mistake of understanding happened here?
Question - What role does context play?
Question- Are the two commands "stay on your feet" and "get stuck in" contradictory or complimentary?

Now , apply some thought to this problem and then use that grey matter with James , abraham et al. and don't make me spell it out for you. I want you to switch the lightbulb on for yourself if you can. Put your agenda on one side and take a deep breath and think.

Originally posted by no1marauder
That's not what the man said. As usual, you're simply reading with your pre-conceived blinders on. Besides, you said someone was saved as soon as they believed in Jesus Christ; James says you are wrong. Romans 10:9, which you are so fond of, says you are saved whether you do any works at all.

Besides, you said someone was saved as soon as they believed in Jesus Christ; James says you are wrong. Romans 10:9, which you are so fond of, says you are saved whether you do any works at all.
marauder------------

Yes , they all say these things in isolation , but if you put them together and look at the bigger picture?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Read this and weep:

James 2:21: 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
----------marauder---------


Let me give you a thought experiment. My 9 year old daughter plays football (soccer) and she is always going for slide tackles and getting left on her backside. I corrected her one yourself if you can. Put your agenda on one side and take a deep breath and think.

I tell you what: for a change just specifically say what you mean. Your style of debate is utterly tedious and predictable. You are falling back on Secret Decoder Rings and fallacious attacks on my so-called "agenda".

You telling someone to think for themselves is hilarious.