The Boundaries of Reality

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
So maybe it's not as simple as 'believing is what it is'. I'm sure many that subsequently leave the faith were sincere when they said that they believe. So at what point does someone become one of His sheep?

You still haven't answered my question.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You can't envision that there haven't been those who have done as prescribed in that verse and subsequently left the faith? Even after 10, 20 or even 50 years?

It doesn't matter how long it's been:

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
You still haven't answered my question.

I know. I'm still trying to pin down exactly what you mean by your question.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
It doesn't matter how long it's been:

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

I'd agree.

So evidently there's more to it than Romans 10:9.

I have a pretty good idea of where I believe that someone becomes one of His sheep.

It's becoming pretty evident that you don't or aren't willing to share what you believe.

How can I answer your question without knowing the answer to my question? I can answer your question within the context of my beliefs, but I doubt that that's what you're looking for.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I know. I'm still trying to pin down exactly what you mean by your question.

Look again at John 10:28, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28). Christ isn't talking here about giving eternal life at some future time; he is talking about giving them eternal life right now, in this life, the moment they believe in Him: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life" (John 5:24). Christ gives eternal life to all who sincerely believe in Him; furthermore, He says that they will NEVER perish.

My question is, can they still perish or not?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Look again at John 10:28, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28). Christ isn't talking here about giving eternal life at some future time; he is talking about giving them eternal life right now, in this life, the moment they believe in Him: "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever h ...[text shortened]... more, He says that they will NEVER perish.

My question is, can they still perish or not?

lol. We seem to be one post apart. Look at my previous post.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I'd agree.

So evidently there's more to it than Romans 10:9.

I have a pretty good idea of where I believe that someone becomes one of His sheep.

It's becoming pretty evident that you don't or aren't willing to share what you believe.

How can I answer your question without knowing the answer to my question? I can answer your question within the context of my beliefs, but I doubt that that's what you're looking for.

Alright, well, at least you know what is required for salvation, and what isn't. There is no gray area. You either believe or you do not; you're either in or you're out. Those who are in are not required to be perfectly obedient to the law. Salvation cannot be lost because salvation is gained independently of works - it is according to faith. Christ's sheep will never perish, because they already possess eternal life.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
lol. We seem to be one post apart. Look at my previous post.

Ah, the pitfalls of posting... 🙂

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Alright, well, at least you know what is required for salvation, and what isn't. There is no gray area. You either believe or you do not; you're either in or you're out. Those who are in are not required to be perfectly obedient to the law. Salvation cannot be lost because salvation is gained independently of works - it is according to faith. Christ's sheep will never perish, because they already possess eternal life.

You still haven't said what it means to be one of His sheep. You've only stepped around the question. I'm thinking it's pretty important.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Do you think James is saying that we are saved by our works, not by faith?

EDIT: by the way, I'm disappointed that you have not quoted from the Synoptic gospels! Some consistency would be nice. 🙂

I think he is rejecting the idea of salvation by grace alone. Please do re-write it and give me 8 quotes from the Paulian letters to explain how what he says is consistent with that doctrine.

You refuse to meaningful discuss Matthew 25, so I assume you won't bother to respond to any discussion of the Synoptics. As Freaky says, you have to know your audience.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You still haven't said what it means to be one of His sheep. You've only stepped around the question. I'm thinking it's pretty important.

Here's what it means to be one of Christ's sheep:

A Christian is someone who has received the Lord Jesus as Savior (John 1:12), trusts Him alone for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 4:12), has put no trust in his own efforts to please God (Isaiah 64:6), and who has repented from his/her sins (Mark 1:15). A Christian is called to do good works (Eph. 2:10), it's just that these works are not combined with our faith to merit the forgiveness of our sins, they are, instead, a natural result of our saved condition. That is, Christ's sheep do good works because they are His sheep, not to become His sheep.

Bottom line: once a person is saved, that person does not need to strive to keep his or her salvation by the effort of their works.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Here's what it means to be one of Christ's sheep:

A Christian is someone who has received the Lord Jesus as Savior (John 1:12), trusts Him alone for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 4:12), has put no trust in his own efforts to please God (Isaiah 64:6), and who has repented from his/her sins (Mark 1:15). A Christian is called to do good works (Eph. 2:10) at person does not need to strive to keep his or her salvation by the effort of their works.

Please e-mail Jesus right away with your "bottom line"; he seems to have got it wrong.

EDIT: cc to his brother as well.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I think he is rejecting the idea of salvation by grace alone. Please do re-write it and give me 8 quotes from the Paulian letters to explain how what he says is consistent with that doctrine.

You refuse to meaningful discuss Matthew 25, so I assume you won't bother to respond to any discussion of the Synoptics. As Freaky says, you have to know your audience.

It's really quite simple: genuine believers do good works because they are saved, not in order to become saved. James isn't saying, like you are, that salvation is based on works. He's saying that genuine believers have works and false believers don't. Pure and simple. How is this in conflict with Matthew 25 or the Pauline letters? It isn't. Those having genuine faith do good works (Eph. 2:10), yet it is not their works which justify them before God (Rom. 4:5). James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive. Genuine faith is the key to good works, but it is faith that justifies man before God not the works of the flesh. In fact, those who perform good works in order to "secure" their salvation, as if it could be lost, also have an empty and useless faith: "For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace" (Galatians 5:4).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
It's really quite simple: genuine believers do good works because they are saved, not in order to become saved. James isn't saying, like you are, that salvation is based on works. He's saying that genuine believers have works and false believers don't. Pure and simple. How is this in conflict with Matthew 25 or the Pauline letter have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace" (Galatians 5:4).

This fundie version doesn't explain James 2:14 or Matthew 25: 31-46.

James 2:14: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?

Of course the last is a rhetorical question. Faith alone can't save you according to James which contradicts your opinion i.e. "A person is saved the moment they believe in Jesus Christ".

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Here's what it means to be one of Christ's sheep:

A Christian is someone who has received the Lord Jesus as Savior (John 1:12), trusts Him alone for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 4:12), has put no trust in his own efforts to please God (Isaiah 64:6), and who has repented from his/her sins (Mark 1:15). A Christian is called to do good works (Eph. 2:10) ...[text shortened]... at person does not need to strive to keep his or her salvation by the effort of their works.

You can't envision that there haven't been those who have done as prescribed in those verses and subsequently left the faith? Even after 10, 20 or even 50 years?

What about those who think that they've repented, yet continue to sin?

Can someone be one of His sheep and continue to sin?