The Boundaries of Reality

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I didn't answer your question directly because it's a loaded question. Instead I tried to convey how I believe things work. I don't see how what I posted is in conflict with John 10:28. Ask an honest question and I'll answer it the best I can.

Look at my earlier post about 'faith'. As I see it, faith must go beyond a selfish faith. One must believe in ...[text shortened]... only thing that makes sense: Living a life of humility, love, compassion, justice, etc.

I didn't answer your question directly because it's a loaded question. Instead I tried to convey how I believe things work. I don't see how what I posted is in conflict with John 10:28. Ask an honest question and I'll answer it the best I can.

It is an honest question: will those to whom Christ gives eternal life never perish, as Christ says? Or can they?

One or the other is true. Which is it?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]I didn't answer your question directly because it's a loaded question. Instead I tried to convey how I believe things work. I don't see how what I posted is in conflict with John 10:28. Ask an honest question and I'll answer it the best I can.

It is an honest question: will those to whom Christ gives eternal life never perish, as Christ says? Or can they?

One or the other is true. Which is it?[/b]

Look at my edit above.

How can you not see this as a loaded question?
if salvation could be lost, why did Jesus say in John 10:28 that He gives eternal life and that His sheep will NEVER perish?

The current question doesn't seem to have proper context. At what point do you see Christ as giving eternal life?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]If you're going to hedge your bets with Jesus, then you might want to consider heeding the warning of Matthew 7:21-23 above.

Hedge your bets!!? You speak as if Christ were untrustworthy. Any person who has a genuine faith in Christ would never "hedge his bets." Anyone who considers doing so is still operating under the law, not God's grace: ...[text shortened]... " But He said, THEY WILL NEVER PERISH.

So, will they never perish? Or can they?[/b]

Just curious: have you ever even read the Synoptic Gospels? You never quote them. Do you think that John writing at least 60 years after Christ's death and/or Paul who was dealing with 2nd or 3rd hand information are the most reliable purveyors of Christ's message?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Look at my edit above.

How can you not see this as a loaded question?
[b]if salvation could be lost, why did Jesus say in John 10:28 that He gives eternal life and that His sheep will NEVER perish?

The current question doesn't seem to have proper context. At what point do you see Christ as giving eternal life?[/b]

A person is saved the moment they believe in Jesus Christ:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:9-10).

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12).

Jesus Christ says that when a person hears His word and believes in Him, at that moment they have eternal life. Not "will receive" eternal life - they already have eternal life:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).

Which is mirrored by Paul:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:1).

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).

--------------------------------

So can Christ's sheep, to whom he gives eternal life, ever lose their salvation?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Much of the confusion for those who claim that Paul brought something conceptually or foundationally different than did our Lord Jesus Christ lies in the misapplication of doctrine. As has been stated, one must know one's audience. Scripture must be viewed in light of several factors, not simply the superficial and immediate meaning.

According to such ...[text shortened]... , the only folks who can claim to be Christians are those walking around without hands or eyes.

Perhaps you could have told Christ how better to describe what would happen on Judgment Day then he did in Matthew 25 since the obvious meaning is incorrect according to you and the other fundies on this site.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
A person is saved the moment they believe in Jesus Christ:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:9-10).

"But as many ...[text shortened]...

So can Christ's sheep, to whom he gives eternal life, ever lose their salvation?

Still haven't quoted the Synoptic Gospels. Try reading them rather than relying on the cliff notes of some fundie group.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
A person is saved the moment they believe in Jesus Christ:

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:9-10).

"But as many

So can Christ's sheep, to whom he gives eternal life, ever lose their salvation?

Well, we're getting closer.

What constitutes believing in Jesus Christ? At what point are they officially 'his sheep'?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Well, we're getting closer.

What constitutes believing in Jesus Christ?

Well, either you believe in Him or you don't. Believing is what it is.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Well, either you believe in Him or you don't. Believing is what it is.

Really? James in chapter 2 (another book you never quote though it was supposedly written by Jesus' brother) disagrees:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,

16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Well, either you believe in Him or you don't. Believing is what it is.

So, exactly what is it? At what point does one become one of 'His sheep'? When someone says the words, "I believe"? What about those who subsequently renounce Christianity? I can come up with a hundred such questions, but I think you know that there's more to it than 'believing is what it is'.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Really? James in chapter 2 (another book you never quote though it was supposedly written by Jesus' brother) disagrees:

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? [b]can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,

16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace ...[text shortened]... orks: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.[/b]

Do you think James is saying that we are saved by our works, not by faith?

EDIT: by the way, I'm disappointed that you have not quoted from the Synoptic gospels! Some consistency would be nice. 🙂

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Well, we're getting closer.

What constitutes believing in Jesus Christ? At what point are they officially 'his sheep'?

1 John 2:19 says, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."

If someone leaves the faith it is because they never were saved, i.e., they never really believed.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
1 John 2:19 says, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."

If someone leaves the faith it is because they never were saved, i.e., they never really believed.

So maybe it's not as simple as 'believing is what it is'. I'm sure many that subsequently leave the faith were sincere when they said that they believe. So at what point does someone become one of His sheep?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
So maybe it's not as simple as 'believing is what it is'. I'm sure many that subsequently leave the faith were sincere when they said that they believe. So at what point does someone become one of His sheep?

So at what point does someone become one of His sheep?

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (Romans 10:9).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]So at what point does someone become one of His sheep?

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (Romans 10:9).[/b]

You can't envision that there haven't been those who have done as prescribed in that verse and subsequently left the faith? Even after 10, 20 or even 50 years?