The Boundaries of Reality

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
That's rich stuff coming from a man who practices law wherein understanding of any rule demands a comprehensive view of all things related, i.e., history, language, audience, underlying intent of legislature, etc., etc.

Morevoer, we are reading the account looking backward--- now 2,000 years past the time that our Lord Jesus Christ was here on the plane ...[text shortened]... ng of Scriptures 2,000 years old, well, by golly, the straight-forward reading is the only one!

Those types of interpretative tools are not necessary where the document is in plain language and clearly expresses the intent of the author/speaker. Sometimes a cigar is a cigar. You don't have to plumb into the history, language, etc. etc. etc. when reading a bill of lading, for example.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Those types of interpretative tools are not necessary where the document is in plain language and clearly expresses the intent of the author/speaker. Sometimes a cigar is a cigar. You don't have to plumb into the history, language, etc. etc. etc. when reading a bill of lading, for example.

I have read bills of lading that definitely require a wide range of imagination and guesswork.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The problem is that they are half-truths. They are only situationally true. If you would have told her that there are situations where she needs to stay on her feet and that there are others where she needs to tackle, there wouldn't have been a misunderstanding. You could have given her various scenarios to help her to be able to distinguish the differenc e says what He means and means what He says. Do you believe Jesus? Do you believe in Jesus?

If you would have told her that there are situations where she needs to stay on her feet and that there are others where she needs to tackle, there wouldn't have been a misunderstanding. -------------------------------------- ThinkOone

LOL - Wanna bet? Children don't deal in situational truths NOR can they deal with truths that compliment each other but seemingly also contradict each other. Half truths are not inferior in any way because they offer a greater subtlety. The two truths work together to provide balance. Holding two opposing ideas together in your mind at the same time (eg- faith without works cannot save , but salvation is still through faith and not works) takes effort and thought because you need to be able to hold the two ideas simultaneously and appreciate the traps they are meant to help you avoid. Are you prepared to put in that thought and effort ? After all you are not my 9 year old daughter are you?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
"No servant can serve two masters."

Is God master or are desires and feelings master? If God isn't always master, then there is a lack of humility.

"No servant can serve two masters."

Is God master or are desires and feelings master? If God isn't always master, then there is a lack of humility THINK OF ONE---------

Gotcha! ...In which case when Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane he should not have been overwhelmed by his feleings and ask the father to "take this cup from me" . He should have just said " I will follow no matter what - I don't want you to take this cup from me because you are my master - not my feelings". Was this a lack of humility on Jesus's part or just an inevitable emergence of his vulnerability and humanity?

Originally posted by no1marauder
No, I'm not playing your games. Directly say what you mean; your constant attempts to control any thread by such childish antics is annoying and distracting to serious debate.

No, I'm not playing your games. Directly say what you mean; your constant attempts to control any thread by such childish antics is annoying and distracting to serious debate.MARAUDER--------

The irony here is incredible! What you call childish is actually an attempt to get you thinking like an adult instead of just all or nothing thinking. No wonder you are annoyed! I'm the one seriously trying to debate what's going on here not you, don't try taking the intellectual high ground with me . You are running away. You are afraid of doing the thought experiment because you know it will expose your thinking style for what it is - black and white , all or nothing , emotive and lacking in contextual understanding or subtlety. Do you even understand the concept of complimentary and opposing truths? If you can show me you do then I might be able to take YOU seriously.

So for your benefit I will spell it out...

Consider statement a) "Salvation is not gained by works but is a gift of grace through faith"

and statement b) "Faith without works is dead and cannot save on it's own"

Now , in your mind a) and b) contradict each other like "stay on your feet" (READ the thought expereiment) and "get stuck in " , but with a more intelligent approach one can see that (as think of one said) the two truths are situationally dependent. Statement b) is addressed to those who are sitting back thinking ' cool , I can have faith and then I don't have to do anything' and staement a) is addressed to those who think ' cool , I can work harder than the next guy and God will give me a better seat in heaven.'

BOTH thoughts are mistakes in understanding. But BOTH statements are true in their correct context. BOTH truths compliment each other and work together to keep men in healthy balance. BOTH statements are hard to understand in unison.

The idea is to help men to BOTH feel assured of their salvation through grace (faith) so as to not become proud ...AND...(drum roll)...to also appreciate that grace and faith is not to be taken lightly but needs to be exercised through works. It's simple really.


Direct enough for you?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The problem is that they are half-truths. They are only situationally true. If you would have told her that there are situations where she needs to stay on her feet and that there are others where she needs to tackle, there wouldn't have been a misunderstanding. You could have given her various scenarios to help her to be able to distinguish the differenc ...[text shortened]... e says what He means and means what He says. Do you believe Jesus? Do you believe in Jesus?

You could have given her various scenarios to help her to be able to distinguish the difference. Tof One-------------

Isn't this what God is doing in the Bible? The last time I looked it was a collection of different books and letters addressed to different people , by different writers , addressing different problems. That's why these truths ARE situationally dependent .That's the whole point. You are soooo close it's heart breaking!

Originally posted by knightmeister
If you would have told her that there are situations where she needs to stay on her feet and that there are others where she needs to tackle, there wouldn't have been a misunderstanding. -------------------------------------- ThinkOone

LOL - Wanna bet? Children don't deal in situational truths NOR can they deal with truths that compliment each other ...[text shortened]... ared to put in that thought and effort ? After all you are not my 9 year old daughter are you?

Half-truths can mislead. Truth cannot. Half-truths are borne of a lack of understanding. Truth is complete understanding.

Taking two half-truth into your mind simultaneously is an exercise in attempting to gain understanding. An attempt to arrive at the truth.

Truth is the ultimate reality. God is truth. Cool how this all ties out, don't you think?

Arriving at the truth takes effort and thought. Are you prepared to put in that thought and effort?

Originally posted by knightmeister
"No servant can serve two masters."

Is God master or are desires and feelings master? If God isn't always master, then there is a lack of humility THINK OF ONE---------

Gotcha! ...In which case when Jesus was in the Garden of Gethsemane he should not have been overwhelmed by his feleings and ask the father to "take this cup from me" . He shoul lity on Jesus's part or just an inevitable emergence of his vulnerability and humanity?

Yes it was a lack of humility on his part. But when his father didn't take the cup away from him, he humbled himself and did what he knew in his heart he needed to do. He walked the walk. Just as a follower of the teachings of Jesus needs to do. One may at times feel conflicted, but needs to find the humility to push through it all the same.

Matthew 7:17-18
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit."

What kind of fruit does a follower of the teachings of Jesus bear?

Can one bear bad fruit and be a true follower of the teachings of Jesus?

Originally posted by knightmeister
You could have given her various scenarios to help her to be able to distinguish the difference. Tof One-------------

Isn't this what God is doing in the Bible? The last time I looked it was a collection of different books and letters addressed to different people , by different writers , addressing different problems. That's why these truths ARE situationally dependent .That's the whole point. You are soooo close it's heart breaking!

What's heart-breaking is watching you work so hard to justify the desires of your ego. You don't have to remain a slave to them. Follow the teachings of Jesus and you can be free of them. The Truth will make you free. Cool how this all ties out, isn't it?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Yes it was a lack of humility on his part. But when his father didn't take the cup away from him, he humbled himself and did what he knew in his heart he needed to do. He walked the walk. Just as a follower of the teachings of Jesus needs to do. One may at times feel conflicted, but needs to find the humility to push through it all the same.

Matthew gs of Jesus bear?

Can one bear bad fruit and be a true follower of the teachings of Jesus?

Yes it was a lack of humility on his part.
You, sir, are high.

... but needs to find the humility to push through it all the same.
Ostensibly, said humilty can be found at any local Wal-Mart store. Look in the Self-Abnegation section today!

Originally posted by no1marauder
God's "grace" is granted to all according to the NT. Faith is insufficient for salvation, however, as Jesus expressly states in Matthew 25 and as James also makes clear. Paul was wrong if he meant to say faith alone was sufficient though it is very doubtful that is what he meant (more likely what he referred to as "works" were the types of things done by ...[text shortened]... Jesus and James were referring to - acts of kindness, charity and mercy to our fellow Men).

Now we're getting somewhere.

Paul and James are talking about two different kinds of works. Paul speaks of works done in obedience to the law of Moses, and James speaks of works done in obedience to the Gospel. Works done in obedience to the Gospel "must be such as God himself commands, and not the mere fruits of our own imagination and devising" (Matthew Henry's Commentary, p. 1934). That is, only those having a genuine faith rather than an empty profession will be able to follow Jesus Christ.

Why? Because only those who have a genuine faith are declared righteous (Rom. 3:24), and only those declared righteous receive the Holy Spirit (Gal. 3:2), which means only those who receive the Holy Spirit are truly God's children (Rom. 8:14) and obey the Gospel: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit... Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:1, 9).

Thus, "the best works, without faith, are dead... It is by faith that anything we do is really good" (Matthew Henry's Commentary, p. 1934). Furthermore, "the most plausible profession of faith, without works, is dead: as the root is dead when it produces nothing green, nothing of fruit. Faith is the root, good works are the fruits, and we must see to it that we have both. We must not think that either, without the other, will justify and save us" (Matthew Henry's Commentary, p. 1934).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Now we're getting somewhere.

Paul and James are talking about two different kinds of works. Paul speaks of works done in obedience to the law of Moses, and James speaks of works done in obedience to the Gospel. Works done in obedience to the Gospel "must be such as God himself commands, and not the mere fruits of our own imagination and devising" (M ...[text shortened]... without the other, will justify and save us" (Matthew Henry's Commentary, p. 1934).

Despite Paul's claims, nowhere in the Synoptic Gospels does Jesus claim that first we profess faith, THEN we receive the Holy Spirit, and THEN we start doing good works. We shall be judged at Judgment Day by what we have done. Matthew 25:31-46. This would be unnecessary IF those who going to go to Heaven had already been declared "righteous"; there would be no need for a Judgment Day at all.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Despite Paul's claims, nowhere in the Synoptic Gospels does Jesus claim that first we profess faith, THEN we receive the Holy Spirit, and THEN we start doing good works. We shall be judged at Judgment Day by what we have done. Matthew 25:31-46. This would be unnecessary IF those who going to go to Heaven had already been declared "righteous"; there would be no need for a Judgment Day at all.

Wrong. Jesus said, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:15-16). This is mirrored in the book of John: "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18). Faith is the root and without it there cannot be any fruit (i.e., divinely appointed works), "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Wrong. Jesus said, "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:15-16). This is mirrored in the book of John: "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believe ...[text shortened]... r good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).

My statement remains correct (though I commend you for finally using one passage from the Synoptics).

The rest of that passage states:

17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Have you been doing any of those things lately?

Originally posted by no1marauder
My statement remains correct (though I commend you for finally using one passage from the Synoptics).

The rest of that passage states:

17 And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it ...[text shortened]... he sick, and they shall recover.

Have you been doing any of those things lately?

Yes, I speak in tongues and cast out demons in Christ's name. I've never messed with any serpents though, nor have I partaken of anything poisonous (that I'm aware of). Some folks have the gift of laying hands on the sick and healing them, but the Lord hasn't blessed me with such a gift yet.

This brings up an interesting point. You said that Christ did not say anything in the Synoptic Gospels about believers receiving the Holy Spirit, yet the passage which you just cited contains the specific evidences which manifest in those who have received the Holy Spirit (see the book of Acts).