19 Jan 10
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Originally posted by daniel58Daniel you have returned from your sojourn in the wilderness, how are you? oops should have checked the dates, hes gone forever.
They are on;y conflicts because you make them, I could honor you by inviting you over for dinner and letting you sit and the best spot at my table AND I could ask you to help me move. Who would you go to first your Father who might not grant what you want or your Mother will most likely persuade your your Father to get what you want
20 Jan 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieHe's a young man with much to learn,God bless his simple soul!
Daniel you have returned from your sojourn in the wilderness, how are you? oops should have checked the dates, hes gone forever.
BTW Fabian, saints and avatars only become idols when they are idolized.
There is a reason for all the different avatars in hinduism as I'm sure there is a reason for all the saints in catholicism.
God is complex and cannot be understood by a 'one size fits all' policy which seems to be the standpoint of mainstream christianity. All religons have there place in the world for the time being. Anyway that which doesn't work will not be followed and kept alive by people and hence die out.
I guess religons have been a cruch for humanity. Or maybe a stepping stone for understanding God directly.
20 Jan 10
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Originally posted by Rajk999its the belief of roman catholics, that the pope is infalable,
So the Pope knows who is in heaven.
Praying to deceased relatives.
Approval for public devotion.
Is any of that Biblical ?
praying for deceased relatives ..not to
if it gets more people within the church all christian churchs would use this
biblical?? well think jesus said to peter what you cast on earth is cast in heaven,
praying for the departed is genraly accepted
20 Jan 10
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Originally posted by stokerThe Pope is only viewed as being infalable when he is speaking 'excathedra' on doctrinal matters. Not even roman catholics believe EVERY utterance is infalable.
its the belief of roman catholics, that the pope is infalable,
praying for deceased relatives ..not to
if it gets more people within the church all christian churchs would use this
biblical?? well think jesus said to peter what you cast on earth is cast in heaven,
praying for the departed is genraly accepted
excathedra= from the chair. Limited to official statements.
20 Jan 10
Originally posted by expuddlepirateI've asked this before but in light of Matt 23:9 how does this justify the Pope being called Father?
The Pope is only viewed as being infalable when he is speaking 'excathedra' on doctrinal matters. Not even roman catholics believe EVERY utterance is infalable.
excathedra= from the chair. Limited to official statements.
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21 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75Actually, Jesus makes no distinction between spiritual or parental. He clearly forbids calling anyone father, teacher or master. But obviously this is not to be taken literally because in the NT, St Paul identifies himself as a teacher (1Tim 2:7, 2Tim 1:1) as well as others (1Cor 12:28). St Paul also calls himself a father in Christ to the Corinthians: "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14–15). Throughout the NT, the Scripture writers refers to their readers as their children (Gal. 4:19; 1 Tim. 1:18; 2 Tim. 2:1; Philem. 10; 1 Pet. 5:13; 1 John 2:1; 3 John 4).
This scripture is referring to calling someone Father in a spiritual sense, not in a parental sense. The term Father in the spiritual sense is reserved for God only as the scripture in Matthew is saying.
In context, Jesus is condemning the Pharisees who 'love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation 'Rabbi.'' His condemnation of titles must be read in this light. No one should exalt themselves and seek personal glory. No one should revel in titles of religious superiority. However, the early Christians clearly did use these titles. They did understand themselves as teachers and fathers but in a different way to the Pharisees. Catholics call the Pope 'father' because he has taken upon himself a spiritual paternity of all Catholics. He is not, however, a Pharisee.
21 Jan 10
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Originally posted by Conrau KYour right in the sense that titles are abused and really should not be used at all in a religious sense which is what your saying and by the scriptures you use. So your really confirming what Matt 23:9 is saying.
Actually, Jesus makes no distinction between spiritual or parental. He clearly forbids calling anyone father, teacher or master. But obviously this is not to be taken literally because in the NT, St Paul identifies himself as a teacher (1Tim 2:7, 2Tim 1:1) as well as others (1Cor 12:28). St Paul also calls himself a father in Christ to the Corinthians: "I d ken upon himself a spiritual paternity of all Catholics. He is not, however, a Pharisee.
So again I ask the Catholics how does the Pope justify using this titile on this man?
And reinforcing this point Jesus said that no man can approach God except thru him. Nothing in the Bible says that we go thru a man or priest to communicate with God ever.
It seems the Catholics insist on a Clergy class that recieves admiration which is not their's to recieve and which Jesus totally condemened himself.
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21 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75So again I ask the Catholics how does the Pope justify using this titile on this man?
Your right in the sense that titles are abused and really should not be used at all in a religious sense which is what your saying and by the scriptures you use. So your really confirming what Matt 23:9 is saying.
So again I ask the Catholics how does the Pope justify using this titile on this man?
And reinforcing this point Jesus said that no man ca ...[text shortened]... recieves admiration which is not their's to recieve and which Jesus totally condemened himself.
In the same way that St Paul and St Peter justify it. You are not supposed to take Jesus literally here. You miss the point otherwise. There is nothing wrong with names (just as there is nothing wrong with any foods or animals). What matters is the inner disposition. Jesus is concerned not so much about the titles themselves but about their arrogance.
And reinforcing this point Jesus said that no man can approach God except thru him. Nothing in the Bible says that we go thru a man or priest to communicate with God ever.
Of course. All grace comes through Jesus Christ and all prayers go through Jesus Christ. He is the mediator.
It seems the Catholics insist on a Clergy class that recieves admiration which is not their's to recieve and which Jesus totally condemened himself.
We call the clergy fathers because they have taken on a spiritual fatherhood of a community. This is not to usurp the place of Jesus nor is it motivated by vanity (many priests do not like titles anyway.)
21 Jan 10
Originally posted by Conrau KOk this has been discussed a few times but I'll ask you this anyway. Who do the Catholics go to when they've sinned and need to pray to God? Thru Jesus?
[b]So again I ask the Catholics how does the Pope justify using this titile on this man?
In the same way that St Paul and St Peter justify it. You are not supposed to take Jesus literally here. You miss the point otherwise. There is nothing wrong with names (just as there is nothing wrong with any foods or animals). What matters is the inner disposit ...[text shortened]... surp the place of Jesus nor is it motivated by vanity (many priests do not like titles anyway.)[/b]