The Catholic Saints

Originally posted by galveston75
So miricles are good or are they bad? You seem to be saying both.

In themselves, miracles are not good. Jesus does not want people to convert merely because of miracles. He rebukes the Pharisees who demand such a miracle to convince them. Miracles can be good when they lead to a genuine faith, when they arouse admiration and wonder, but they should not be the substance of faith.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
we would like to take it a stage further and state that miraculous gifts have ceased altogether, whether they are gifts of healing, gifts of prophesying, etc etc.

St Paul does not say that however.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]No not all Christians during that time performed miricles so that is strange to say that.

If you read Acts, you will see examples of Christians, not apostles, performing miracles.

The Pope according to Catholics is even higher in position then Jesus was when he was one earth from what I hear. So again why can't he at least do what Jesus wa ...[text shortened]... the apostles. Forgiveness of sins is eminently more important than the performance of miracles.

Well I've heard many Catholics say the Pope is God on earth. Maybe your priest teachings something different.
So getting back to praying to Preist at confession. If one prays directly to God thru Jesus's name as Jesus said to do and does not go to confession, will the prayer not be heard by God and not forgiven if a sin has been made?

Originally posted by galveston75
Well I've heard many Catholics say the Pope is God on earth. Maybe your priest teachings something different.
So getting back to praying to Preist at confession. If one prays directly to God thru Jesus's name as Jesus said to do and does not go to confession, will the prayer not be heard by God and not forgiven if a sin has been made?

Well I've heard many Catholics say the Pope is God on earth.

I have never heard anything of the sort from any Catholic. Such a teaching would be at odds with Catholicism. The Pope is a bishop like any other bishop who possesses the special charism of infallibility along with all the other bishops. He is not a demigod but an ordinary man.

So getting back to praying to Preist at confession. If one prays directly to God thru Jesus's name as Jesus said to do and does not go to confession, will the prayer not be heard by God and not forgiven if a sin has been made?

Possibly. A person may be baptised without baptism by water. Likewise, a person may be forgiven without sacramental absolution. However, it is proper to go through the sacraments which Jesus himself instituted.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Well I've heard many Catholics say the Pope is God on earth.

I have never heard anything of the sort from any Catholic. Such a teaching would be at odds with Catholicism. The Pope is a bishop like any other bishop who possesses the special charism of infallibility along with all the other bishops. He is not a demigod but an ordinary man.

So absolution. However, it is proper to go through the sacraments which Jesus himself instituted.

Maybe not but I have had many tell me he is God on earth.
But what I'm confused about with confession is it directly goes against the Bible. If we are to go thru a man in a religious setting to confess our sins, why did Jesus not say to do that? If we are to go thru a man then why didn't all the early Christians do it? There is not one mention at all in the scriptures of anyone going to a confession. In fact this would cancel out how the Bible says to pray in privacy.
And another side point is at Isa 1:15 which states that ones who shed blood will have prayers that are not heard. Do not the Catholics fight in wars? Do not the priest bless the troups and their weapons?
So sence they've done these things as history confirms, why would God let a priest be involved in our prayers to him?

And what do you mean infallibility?

Originally posted by galveston75
Maybe not but I have had many tell me he is God on earth.
But what I'm confused about with confession is it directly goes against the Bible. If we are to go thru a man in a religious setting to confess our sins, why did Jesus not say to do that? If we are to go thru a man then why didn't all the early Christians do it? There is not one mention at all ...[text shortened]... ld God let a priest be involved in our prayers to him?

And what do you mean infallibility?

Maybe not but I have had many tell me he is God on earth.

Either that is a lie or you are not speaking to Catholics.

But what I'm confused about with confession is it directly goes against the Bible. If we are to go thru a man in a religious setting to confess our sins, why did Jesus not say to do that?

He gave the authority to forgive sins to his apostles. Hence, the legitimacy of confession depends on a historical point -- did the apostles and their successors practice confession? The evidence is 'yes'.

If we are to go thru a man then why didn't all the early Christians do it?

Well, they did. In the NT, we can see some evidence of confession:

Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds
Acts 19:18

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.
James 5:16

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
1John 1:9

The writings of early Christians also attest to the practice of confession:

"Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . . On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure" (Didache 4:14, 14:1 [A.D. 100]).

"You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light" (Letter of Barnabas 19 [A.D. 74]).

"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ" (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians 3 [A.D. 110]).

And another side point is at Isa 1:15 which states that ones who shed blood will have prayers that are not heard. Do not the Catholics fight in wars? Do not the priest bless the troups and their weapons?

When there is just cause, then God is merciful. When men are bound by the state, then men must obey as St Paul requires. God is merciful then too.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Maybe not but I have had many tell me he is God on earth.

Either that is a lie or you are not speaking to Catholics.

But what I'm confused about with confession is it directly goes against the Bible. If we are to go thru a man in a religious setting to confess our sins, why did Jesus not say to do that?

He gave the authority to forgi bound by the state, then men must obey as St Paul requires. God is merciful then too.[/b]

I'll comment on the first parts later but as far as being bound by the state or country we live in means what? Jesus said to pay Caeser's things to Caeser when he was talking about taxes. He never once said we are to fight for whatever government we may live under. We are not allowed as Christians to kill another human being.
Rom 13:1, 5-7 is very clear on the things we have to do with our life in worldly governments. Fighting is not listed here.
Matt 26: 52.
Isa 2: 2-4.
2 Cor 10: 3,4.
Luke 6: 27, 28.
Perhaps these scriptures do not apply to the Catholics?

Originally posted by galveston75
I'll comment on the first parts later but as far as being bound by the state or country we live in means what? Jesus said to pay Caeser's things to Caeser when he was talking about taxes. He never once said we are to fight for whatever government we may live under. We are not allowed as Christians to kill another human being.
Rom 13:1, 5-7 is very clea ...[text shortened]... .
2 Cor 10: 3,4.
Luke 6: 27, 28.
Perhaps these scriptures do not apply to the Catholics?

Catholics would refer to this verse:

Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
Romans 13:7

Sometimes the state may require men to participate in war. There can be just causes for this such as an unprovoked attack, in which case a man is obliged to defend his country. I never said that Catholics are obliged to serve every whim of government. Obviously when there is a conflict between government and faith, there can be no competition. No Christian is ever obliged to renounce his faith. Government however can legitimately demand service in exigent circumstances.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Catholics would refer to this verse:

Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
Romans 13:7

Sometimes the state may require men to participate in war. There can be just causes for this such as an unprovoked attack, in which case a man is obliged to defend ...[text shortened]... renounce his faith. Government however can legitimately demand service in exigent circumstances.

That scriptures says nothing about taking another life though. And there are plenty of principles as well as laws that forbid the taking of another life. Jesus even said to not use the sword and if one did what the results would be in God's eyes.
Jesus also said his Kingdom was no part of this world. If we fight for a worldy government then that's where are alegence would be, right? We are also to love all humans but especially ones related to us in the faith. So your willing to kill other Catholics? Don't you see the crime in that? The Bible also says we can't serve two masters. But if it's your religions decision to kill and bless it, so be it....

Originally posted by galveston75
That scriptures says nothing about taking another life though. And there are plenty of principles as well as laws that forbid the taking of another life. Jesus even said to not use the sword and if one did what the results would be in God's eyes.
Jesus also said his Kingdom was no part of this world. If we fight for a worldy government then that's wher ...[text shortened]... t serve two masters. But if it's your religions decision to kill and bless it, so be it....

That scriptures says nothing about taking another life though. And there are plenty of principles as well as laws that forbid the taking of another life. Jesus even said to not use the sword and if one did what the results would be in God's eyes.

Jesus was referring to a particular rebel in his group who attacked an innocent slave. Obviously the Scripture contain no injunction to kill anyone, although in the OT, the Hebrews do seemingly enter battle with God's command. Catholics recognise that, whether Scripture says it or not, people have a right to defend their life from an aggressor. If an individual is attacked, he has the right to self-defense. If a country is attacked, war is a legitimate response. The Scripture forbids murder but neither does it command people to surrender their lives to an attacker.

Jesus also said his Kingdom was no part of this world. If we fight for a worldy government then that's where are alegence would be, right? We are also to love all humans but especially ones related to us in the faith.

Of course. But I understand in some circumstances war is justified. I think particularly of WWII. The end was to save lives. People were being destroyed in concentration camps and Germany was waging a military campaign over all of Europe. Recourse to war was wholly legitimate.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]That scriptures says nothing about taking another life though. And there are plenty of principles as well as laws that forbid the taking of another life. Jesus even said to not use the sword and if one did what the results would be in God's eyes.

Jesus was referring to a particular rebel in his group who attacked an innocent slave. Obviously the S ...[text shortened]... any was waging a military campaign over all of Europe. Recourse to war was wholly legitimate.[/b]

Thats your viewpoint and that's ok.