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21 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75If they need to pray to God, then obviously they may do that at any time. If they have sinned and need absolution, they should visit a priest. Even then, however, the confession is orientated towards God and God ultimately is the source of absolution. The penitent says 'O my God I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee' and the priest gives absolution saying 'through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit'. Confession is not technically a prayer but a sacrament. When it does contain prayers, these are always directed rightly to God.
Ok this has been discussed a few times but I'll ask you this anyway. Who do the Catholics go to when they've sinned and need to pray to God? Thru Jesus?
21 Jan 10
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Originally posted by Conrau KSo the priest is like a mediator or messenger between man and Jesus?
If they need to pray to God, then obviously they may do that at any time. If they have sinned and need absolution, they should visit a priest. Even then, however, the confession is orientated towards God and God ultimately is the source of absolution. The penitent says 'O my God I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee' and the priest gives absolution s yer but a sacrament. When it does contain prayers, these are always directed rightly to God.
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21 Jan 10
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Originally posted by galveston75Jesus gave the power to absolve sins to his apostles (John 20:23). This was an act of supreme charity because the confessional is a practical way for people to receive forgiveness. The person is humbled and receives the assurance of forgiveness. They have been embarrassed in front of another and so will not want to commit sins. At the same time, by the absolution, they no not to worry whether they are forgiven. The priest is not a mediator but Jesus did appoint his apostles and their successors to forgive sins.
So exactly why is he needed to do this confession thing? We can't just confess our sins to God thru Jesus as Jesus said to do? Does that not work anymore?
21 Jan 10
Originally posted by Conrau KWas there any indication in the scriptures from Jesus that this ablitlty to forgive as the apostles did was to continue on after the apostles died?
Jesus gave the power to absolve sins to his apostles (John 20:23). This was an act of supreme charity because the confessional is a practical way for people to receive forgiveness. The person is humbled and receives the assurance of forgiveness. They have been embarrassed in front of another and so will not want to commit sins. At the same time, by the abso ...[text shortened]... riest is not a mediator but Jesus did appoint his apostles and their successors to forgive sins.
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21 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75I can't imagine why Jesus would give his apostles the power to forgive and deny this to their successors. What would be the point of that? Surely forgiveness would be even more important in the church when the apostles have departed. Anyway, in Acts, there is circumstantial evidence suggesting successorship. The apostles have the power to choose another apostle (Matthias, Acts 1). In Acts 6, the apostles select seven to share their responsibilities. Among them is Stephen who preaches to the Gentiles and is martyred in the following chapter.
Was there any indication in the scriptures from Jesus that this ablitlty to forgive as the apostles did was to continue on after the apostles died?
21 Jan 10
Originally posted by Conrau KAnd is there even one scripture in the Bible where it shows that an apostle privately forgave someones sins and pronounced them forgiven as the priest do now?
I can't imagine why Jesus would give his apostles the power to forgive and deny this to their successors. What would be the point of that? Surely forgiveness would be even more important in the church when the apostles have departed. Anyway, in Acts, there is circumstantial evidence suggesting successorship. The apostles have the power to choose another apo ...[text shortened]... s. Among them is Stephen who preaches to the Gentiles and is martyred in the following chapter.
And then you have the scriptures in 1Cor 13:2, 8-11 who was written by Paul and here he mentions that the many gifts that the apostles had would be done away with once they were gone. No mention here by Paul or no mention ever by Jesus or the other apostles that any of these gifts would ever be given to earthly man again.
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21 Jan 10
Originally posted by galveston75And is there even one scripture in the Bible where it shows that an apostle privately forgave someones sins and pronounced them forgiven as the priest do now?
And is there even one scripture in the Bible where it shows that an apostle privately forgave someones sins and pronounced them forgiven as the priest do now?
And then you have the scriptures in 1Cor 13:2, 8-11 who was written by Paul and here he mentions that the many gifts that the apostles had would be done away with once they were gone. No mention ...[text shortened]... by Jesus or the other apostles that any of these gifts would ever be given to earthly man again.
No; I do not see why that would be recorded in the Scriptures anyway.
And then you have the scriptures in 1Cor 13:2, 8-11 who was written by Paul and here he mentions that the many gifts that the apostles had would be done away with once they were gone. No mention here by Paul or no mention ever by Jesus or the other apostles that any of these gifts would ever be given to earthly man again.
St Paul says nothing of the sort. He says that the gift of prophesy and speaking in tongues means nothing without love. He does not say that these gifts belong exclusively to the apostles but rather that these gifts, these particular charisms, must always be grounded in the theological virtues of faith, hope and love. I think you have seriously misconstrued these verses.
21 Jan 10
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no he clearly states that they would cease.
(1 Corinthians 13:8-10) . . .Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with.
how many times would you like Paul to state it Conrau?
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21 Jan 10
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieFirstly, St Paul is talking specifically the gift of prophesy, tongues and knowledge. This was not a gift exclusively belonging to the apostles. It is gift for all Christians, men and women (Acts 2:18). Secondly, St Paul does not say that this gift will end when the apostles die. He says that these gifts will end when 'the perfect comes' that is when each meets God face to face.
no he clearly states that they would cease.
(1 Corinthians 13:8-10) . . .Love never fails. But whether there are gifts of prophesying, [b]they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; but w ...[text shortened]... artial will be done away with.
how many times would you like Paul to state it Conrau?[/b]
I have no idea how this relates to the discussion at hand. St Paul is clearly not talking about the ministry of the apostles.
21 Jan 10
Originally posted by Conrau Kno one was saying that this was specifically with reference to the apostles, were they? no one was saying that they shall come to an end when the apostles die, were they? however, that they were of a temporary nature, you cannot deny. Love on the other hand, with which Paul contrasts these temporary gifts, was to be a permanent feature of true Christianity, was it not?
Firstly, St Paul is talking specifically the gift of prophesy, tongues and knowledge. This was not a gift exclusively belonging to the apostles. It is gift for all Christians, men and women (Acts 2:18). Secondly, St Paul does not say that this gift will end when the apostles die. He says that these gifts will end when 'the perfect comes' that is when each m ...[text shortened]... to the discussion at hand. St Paul is clearly not talking about the ministry of the apostles.
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21 Jan 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieno one was saying that this was specifically with reference to the apostles, were they?
no one was saying that this was specifically with reference to the apostles, were they? no one was saying that they shall come to an end when the apostles die, were they? however, that they were of a temporary nature, you cannot deny. Love on the other hand, with which Paul contrasts these temporary gifts, was to be a permanent feature of true Christianity, was it not?
Yes, that is the discussion at hand.
no one was saying that they shall come to an end when the apostles die, were they?
Yes. That was Galveston's point. He is arguing that the powers of the apostles, to forgive sins, ended with the apostles. St Paul however is not discussing the gifts of ministry but more general gifts of prophesy, tongues and knowledge and he is not indicating any specific time of termination.
Love on the other hand, with which Paul contrasts these temporary gifts, was to be a permanent feature of true Christianity, was it not?
Of course. Love, faith and hope are the foundation of Christian life. Whether someone is intelligent or prophetic, this is the essential component of his life.
21 Jan 10
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Originally posted by Conrau Kok, i read the posts , but did not think that Galvo meant the apostles exclusively, oh well, i am not infallible after all. how you can state that which is perfect arrives, correlates to 'meeting', with God i do not know, perhaps you would like to explain it, for Paul himself uses the illustration of a metal mirror, in which he sees a hazy outline, this would seem to relate to knowledge, rather than an experience.
[b]no one was saying that this was specifically with reference to the apostles, were they?
Yes, that is the discussion at hand.
no one was saying that they shall come to an end when the apostles die, were they?
Yes. That was Galveston's point. He is arguing that the powers of the apostles, to forgive sins, ended with the apostles. S ...[text shortened]... life. Whether someone is intelligent or prophetic, this is the essential component of his life.[/b]
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22 Jan 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat's ok. Corinthians 13 is one of the most powerful passages of all the Pauline letters. I'm happy to discuss it anyway.
ok, i read the posts , but did not think that Galvo meant the apostles exclusively, oh well, i am not infallible after all.