Originally posted by RJHindsI'm not clear as to why your allegedly God-inspired prophecy, according to your religionist literature, would require its believers to indulge in almost comical and fumbling sophistry centuries later in their efforts to claim it came true.
I don't think you understand that prophecy. Try this explanation. [blah blah.. blah blah.. blah...
Originally posted by VoidSpiritI don't know personally. I do not know if the city of Tyre you are talking
heck, you can even see practically the entire original island covered top to bottom with buildings in google earth!
there is even a harbor in the north part where there used to be one before.
about is the same or not. Others say it is not. Some say it is, without
proof. I believe, if it has been rebuilt, it will eventually be completely
destroyed to finish the prophecy.
Originally posted by RJHindshehehe. looks like you "christians" are sticking with "eventually" for everything. "eventually" christ will fulfill the mesianic prophecies... "eventually" god will get along to destroying tyre for good...
I don't know personally. I do not know if the city of Tyre you are talking
about is the same or not. Others say it is not. Some say it is, without
proof. I believe, if it has been rebuilt, it will eventually be completely
destroyed to finish the prophecy.
"eventually" you'll get a clue.
[edit] so what was the point of your original post again?
[WHEN CRITICS ASK, Norman Geisler and Thomas Howe, Victor Books, 1992, p. 287]:
"Nebuchadnezzar did destroy the coastal cities. However the people of the port of Tyre had obviously relocated to the island city, which they were able to successfully defend against the Babylonian invaders. Nebuchadnezzar had defeated and plundered the cities on the shore, as Ezekiel prophesied in 26:7-11, but he could not defeat the island city. This fact is reported in Ez 29:18. Further, v. 12 marks a shift from the prophecy concerning Nebuchadnezzar to prophetic declarations about other invaders. V. 3 had already introduced the idea of many invaders in the statement "I... will cause many nations to come up against you.' As history records, many nations did come up against the island city of Tyre, but it was Alexander the Great, laying siege against the island city of Tyre in about 332 B.C., who finally conquered the city and left it in total ruins so that it was never rebuilt. Note that a nation is often referred to by its ruler at the time. When rightly understood, Ezekiel's prophecy perfectly fits the historical record."]
(v 15) Thus says the Lord God to Tyre, "Shall not the coastlands shake at the sound of your fall when the wounded groan, when the slaughter occurs in your midst?
This verse suggests a violent fall with many in pain and some got killed.
Coastlands suggest countries and cities along the sea coast where messages could arrive by sea routes. This shows that Tyre was more important by trade at sea than on land.
(v 16) "Then all the princes of the sea will go down from their thrones, remove their robes, and strip off their embroidered garments. They will clothe themselves with trembling (tremblings); they will sit on the ground, tremble every moment, and be appalled at you.
This verse suggests that the destruction of Tyre was a very fearful one; causing more sorrow to kingdoms dependent on sea trade than the fall of other cities. A terrible fall of the city in historic proportion.
The prophesy of this verse is so distinctive that the words of Ezekiel will be laughed at and not any more taken seriously if this great destruction was not in such great proportion at the time Tyre fell under the seige of Nebuchadnezzar.
(v 17) "And they will take up a lamentation over you and say to you, 'How you have perished, O inhabited one, From the seas, O renowned city, Which was mighty on the sea, She and her inhabitants, Who imposed(put) her(their) terror On all her inhabitants!
The destruction of Tyre will be known to her contemporary as a unique one.
O renowned city refer to Tyre in this chapter as a city well-known to the contemporary world.
Terror on all their inhabitants refers to Tyre being a terrible place to live in.
Tyre is a metaphor for Hell (Sheol - the underworld for suffering (punishment)) in the Old Testament.
(v 18) 'Now the coastlands will tremble On the day of your fall; Yes, the coastlands which are by the sea Will be terrified at your passing.'"
A unique and terrible fall.
The term passing suggests that Tyre was no more at her destruction.
(v 19) For thus says the Lord God, "When I shall make you a desolate city, like the cities which are not inhabited, when I shall bring up the deep over you, and the great waters will cover you,
This verse does not mention how long Tyre will remain a desolate city. But the degree of devastation is said to be so severe as uninhabited cities.
The later part of this verse indicated that the city of Tyre will be immersed in great waters [ the sea ].
When Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander the Great threw the building material (eg: original city wall and houses) into the sea, in an effort to build a causeway to reach the island, the structures of Tyre were immersed in the sea. Nobody live in the causeway ( original structures of mainland Tyre ). The mainland city is therefore uninhabitable. The city relics now seen under the sea shores are not suitable for air-breathing human to inhabit. They can not be built upon or lived in.
It is rare that an ancient city would be thrown into the sea to reclaim land.
This prophesy has unique fulfilment.
(v 20) then I shall bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I shall make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited (or return); but I shall set glory in the land of the living.
Ezekiel compared the destruction of Tyre with the dead going down to the pit (another term for Hell). Tyre must have sunk under the sea as it did not sink into the soil.
An underwater ruin can not be inhabited by human and animals on land without constant need of appliances.
The structures/buildings that signified Tyre could not be inhabited by men if they are all thrown into the sea and sank into the water. They became the underworld.
(v 21) "I shall bring (give you terrors) terrors on you, and you will be no more; though you will be sought, you will never be found again," declares the Lord God.
This suggests lasting destruction. Tyre is not located on survey anymore.
Skeptics insist that Tyre still exists today as a populated peninsula.
Skeptics refuse to accept that there was a mainland city of Tyre. The fishing village/town on the peninsula today is known as Sur, but not the City of Tyre.
The island ceased to exist, as it has become a man made peninsula.
Mainland Tyre is not located as an Archaeological site.
Originally posted by VoidSpiritHow about rebuilding the city of Babylon then?
hehehe. looks like you "christians" are sticking with "eventually" for everything. "eventually" christ will fulfill the mesianic prophecies... "eventually" god will get along to destroying tyre for good...
"eventually" you'll get a clue.
[edit] so what was the point of your original post again?
Originally posted by VoidSpiritOn the map it is call Sour, Lebanon.
heck, you can even see practically the entire original island covered top to bottom with buildings in google earth!
there is even a harbor in the north part where there used to be one before.
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&cp=10&gs_id=y&xhr=t&q=sour+lebanon&gs_upl=&biw=800&bih=600&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.[WORD TOO LONG]
Originally posted by RJHindswhat's the point? you would only claim that it's not the original city or the original people or other such nonsense.
How about rebuilding the city of Babylon then?
with tyre, your god has already been proven a liar. no need to find other examples.
okay, we can find other examples. just for you. another juicy morsel from ezekiel.
“I will make the land of Egypt a desolate waste in the midst of desolated lands; and its own cities will become a desolate waste in the very midst of devastated cities for forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations” –Ezekiel 29:12
and that this desolation would be done by the hand of nebuchadnezzar
Ezekiel 30:10 “I will also cause the crowd of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon.”
this too was a lie.
Originally posted by VoidSpirithttp://www.ucg.org/bible-commentary/Ezekiel/Ezekiel's-prophecy-of-Egypt-to-be-laid-waste-and-scattered-for-40-years,-never-to-be-a-great-empire-again/default.aspx
what's the point? you would only claim that it's not the original city or the original people or other such nonsense.
with tyre, your god has already been proven a liar. no need to find other examples.
okay, we can find other examples. just for you. another juicy morsel from ezekiel.
“I will make the land of Egypt a desolate waste in the mids ...[text shortened]... d of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon.”
this too was a lie.
"According to our current reading, the land would remain desolate for 40 years, during which time the Egyptians would be scattered-after which they would be returned to their homeland of Pathros, southern Egypt (verses 11-14). There is no secular confirmation of this period of scattering. Indeed, we would not expect an admission of such a massive defeat in the Egyptian records. However, "a Babylonian chronicle suggests that Egypt was conquered [by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar] around 568 B.C. Forty years after this date, the Persians [having overthrown the Babylonians] instituted a policy of resettlement for many of the peoples who had been dispersed by Babylon" (Nelson Study Bible, note on verse 11). Pharaoh Hophra was executed at the time of Nebuchadnezzar's invasion, not long after a coup by Hophra's own general Amasis or Ahmose, who replaced him as pharaoh. Ahmose (II) remained on the throne as a Babylonian vassal and continued into the Persian period, dying a year before the Persian invasion of Egypt in 525 B.C.
"Following its conquest by the Babylonians, Egypt would never again be a superpower empire. This was especially true of the original ethnic Egyptians. More than 200 years later, after Alexander the Great, the land of Egypt did emerge again as an independent power under the Ptolemaic dynasty for three centuries-but, besides the fact that it was nowhere near the great power that Egypt had once been, this was actually a Greek kingdom, not a truly Egyptian one. Afterward, Egypt became a Roman possession and then, centuries later, a province of the Islamic empire. When Egypt became an independent nation in modern times, it was as an Arab, not a true Egyptian, state. The original Egyptians today may be found among the Copts of Egypt and possibly the Gypsies (according to some of their historical traditions)-both of whom are indeed very lowly peoples in geopolitical terms."
Originally posted by RJHindsWhen CBN report on an epidemic of Ostriches in Iraq
The following is Isaiah's prediction from God of the destruction of Babylon:
...
And their houses will be full of owls;
Ostriches also will live there, and shaggy goats will frolic there.
Hyenas will howl in their fortified towers
And jackals in their luxurious palaces.
...Isaiah 13:19-22 NASB
Don't you agree?
or bunkers are "manned" by hyenas
or jackals wander around Sadam's palaces
then post again.
..... shaggy goats ....... 😀
Originally posted by RJHindsWhen CBN report on an epidemic of Ostriches in Iraq
The following is Isaiah's prediction from God of the destruction of Babylon:
...
And their houses will be full of owls;
Ostriches also will live there, and shaggy goats will frolic there.
Hyenas will howl in their fortified towers
And jackals in their luxurious palaces.
...Isaiah 13:19-22 NASB
Don't you agree?
or bunkers are "manned" by hyenas
or jackals wander around Sadam's palaces
then post again.
..... shaggy goats ....... 😀
Originally posted by RJHindsegypt was never made desolate by the hand of nebuchadnezzar for 40 years.
http://www.ucg.org/bible-commentary/Ezekiel/Ezekiel's-prophecy-of-Egypt-to-be-laid-waste-and-scattered-for-40-years,-never-to-be-a-great-empire-again/default.aspx
"According to our current reading, the land would remain desolate for 40 years, during which time the Egyptians would be scattered-after which they would be returned to their homeland of Pathros ...[text shortened]... istorical traditions)-both of whom are indeed very lowly peoples in geopolitical terms."
nebuchadnezzar was only able to vassalize egypt for a little while but egypt later returned in power and subjugated babylon.
sour is tyre in the arabic language. the city is called tyre and it is on the same mass as the ancient city of tyre. further, you raise a moot point since the prophesy didn't say tyre wouldn't be rebuilt, it said NO city would be built there. ever.
when will you stop making excuses for your lying god?
Originally posted by wolfgang59I have read this has already happened in the past.
When CBN report on an epidemic of Ostriches in Iraq
or bunkers are "manned" by hyenas
or jackals wander around Sadam's palaces
then post again.
..... shaggy goats ....... 😀
Bagdad is not Babylon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon