The Gap Theory

Originally posted by sonship

Although hyper literalism is not helpful to the spread of the Gospel, neither is false translations and changing the meaning and adding to the words of scripture. I am not satisfied to accept adding millions and billions of years to scripture to conform to the changing views of men, even if those views are science so-called.

There is no ...[text shortened]... n fact I probably make way more sloppy typos than you do.
Sorry to use the term "smart ass."

You say we consult Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:1-17 to get a wider panorama of the history of the universe. However, these are prophecies concerning only a a brief period of time when Nebuchadnezzar was King of Babylon.

And it will be in the day when the Lord gives you rest from your pain and turmoil and harsh service in which you have been enslaved, that you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon, and say,

(Isaiah 14:3-4 NASB)

So we see that Isaiah 14:12-15 is part of a prophecy of a poetic taunt against the King of Babylon.

Ezekiel 28 concerns the defeat of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar. The references to the king of Tyrus or Tyre as a 'cherub' who was in 'Eden' should be understood as a metaphor that describes the rulers great privilege and blessing and not that he was some superhuman angelic being, otherwise he would not be identified as just a man. 😏

Originally posted by sonship

Although hyper literalism is not helpful to the spread of the Gospel, neither is false translations and changing the meaning and adding to the words of scripture. I am not satisfied to accept adding millions and billions of years to scripture to conform to the changing views of men, even if those views are science so-called.

It was long ...[text shortened]... , rebel, amass hordes of other creatures behind him and actually think to challenge God Himself.

You seem to be ignorant of the fact that the spirit world is outside of time as is God.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

(2 Peter 3:8 KJV)

Originally posted by RJHinds
You seem to be ignorant of the fact that the spirit world is outside of time as is God.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

(2 Peter 3:8 KJV)

You seem to be ignorant of the fact that the spirit world is outside of time as is God.

Yes God transcends time. But God can penetrate, enter into and operate in time as well. Right ?

Now, you say the spirit world is strictly outside of time. Then please explain to me how John could say that a "half an hour" passed by in heaven.

"And when He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour." (Revelation 8:1)

How can you say that Heaven is not the spirit world ?
And if it is, and beyond time, how come John noticed about half an hour passed by in Heaven ?

RJ, I respect that you have another viewpoint about Genesis.
But you should understand that some of us brothers have deeply contemplated all these matters before arriving at a position to believe and teach.

Originally posted by sonship

You seem to be ignorant of the fact that the spirit world is outside of time as is God.

Yes God transcends time. But God can penetrate, enter into and operate in time as well. Right ?

Now, you say the spirit world is strictly outside of time. Then please explain to me how John could say that a [b]"half an hour" passed by in ...[text shortened]... s have deeply contemplated all these matters before arriving at a position to believe and teach.[/b]

John was giving the approximate time in relation to those on the earth just as Genesis one does of creation by God in the first three days without the sun and moon.

The Falling Away From Sound Doctrine

Pastor Mike Hoggard discusses a variety of topics that include: Patricia King, Christadelphians, Madonna, Falling Away, Jimmy Swaggart Bible, Outer Darkness, Finis Dake Bible, the Gap Theory, Chuck Missler, and much more.

YouTube

Originally posted by RJHinds

John was giving the approximate time in relation to those on the earth just as Genesis one does of creation by God in the first three days without the sun and moon.

So if he was given the equivalent earth time to the time that passed in heaven, "about half an hour", then how can you be so cock sure they also didn't experience "about a half an hour" in the spirit world?

Actually, I don't think you can so definitively give that explanation.
But I'll give you credit for a good college try.

But I'm not sure either one of us really understand what you mean.

IE. "It was outside of time in the spirit world but it was about half an hour in equivalent time on earth".

Good try though, seriously. Then you ask me to think of the first three days in Genesis 1 in the same way. It was outside of time. But equivalent to the earth (which is what is being described as being made) it was three days.

I have another possibility. Consider an example of the closing of 1 Chronicles 10:14[/b] and the opening verse to the next chapter 1 Chronicles 11:1.

"And he did not inquire of Jehovah; therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse (10:14)

Then all Israel gathered themselves to David at Hebron, saying, Here we are, your bone and your flesh." (11:1)

The new section in chapter 11 is actually begun after an interval of seven years after the closing passage of chapter 10.

Another example:

Ezra 7:1 -

"Now in the first year of Cyrus the king of Persia, so that the word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, Jehovah stirred up the spirit of Cyrus the king of Persia, and he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom and put it also in writing, saying ..."

This involves an interval of 58 years.

We consider also the opening of the book of Ezekiel which starts abruptly with no mentioned connection to anything that went before. And again, Exodus 20:11 strictly speaking, does not say that God created [bara]the heavens and the earth in six days. It says that He made it [asah]. And that could mean more like that He appointed it in a period of six days.

Originally posted by RJHinds

The Falling Away From Sound Doctrine

I have not fallen away from sound doctrine at all.
I have taught something that goes against the "tradition of men" which sometimes they teach as the oracles of God.

Mark 7:8,9 - "While leaving the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men. And He said to them, You nicely set aside the commadment of God that you may keep your tradition."


I am not accusing you of departing from any commandment of God.
I am saying you may teach a tradition of men as God's word.

IE. "We know 6,000 years ago the universe began to exist."

I think it is just a dogmatic tradition of some that I am "departing from" rather than "Sound Doctrine."

Originally posted by sonship

John was giving the approximate time in relation to those on the earth just as Genesis one does of creation by God in the first three days without the sun and moon.

So if he was given the equivalent earth time to the time that passed in heaven, [b]"about half an hour", then how can you be so cock sure they also didn't experience [b ...[text shortened]... e it [asah]. And that could mean more like that He appointed it in a period of six days.[/b]

You seem to be ignorant that John was born in time, not in eternity. He is obviously explaining his vision in terms that other humans born in time might understand it. So the reference, to time must be about earth time. I can't say with certainty that there is no time in heaven now.

Do you believe there was time before the beginning? If so, how would one measure it?

Originally posted by sonship

The Falling Away From Sound Doctrine

I have not fallen away from sound doctrine at all.
I have taught something that goes against the [b]"tradition of men" which sometimes they teach as the oracles of God.

Mark 7:8,9 - "While leaving the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men. And He said to them, You nicely ...[text shortened]... t is just a dogmatic tradition of some that I am "departing from" rather than "Sound Doctrine."

Maybe not. However, this brother in Christ has something to say about the Gap theory that you may find interesting. That is one reason I posted the link to it. I am just trying to help. Take it or leave it.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You seem to be ignorant that John was born in time, not in eternity. He is obviously explaining his vision in terms that other humans born in time might understand it. So the reference, to time must be about earth time. I can't say with certainty that there is no time in heaven now.

Do you believe there was time before the beginning? If so, how would one measure it?

The unspecified interval of time before Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 does not call for a belief in time before "the beginning".

I don't have to explain time before "the beginning". All I need to admit is that it is a mystery how long ago "the beginning" was. Sometime after "the beginning" of time, the Anointed Cherub, the Daystar [Lucifcer] had a magnificent career with probably a vast dominion. A rebellion fermented and he deceived one third of God's angels and who knows how many other beings to follow him.

You have to place this history after the day designated as "one day" in Genesis 1:5.

Very curious and unfortunate to my sense, you wipe out what little we are told in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14. It appears that the zeal to uphold the principle of robbing Evolution of a long time calls for you inserting any unknown development of Daystar to Satan in the Genesis week.

The more I converse with you about the history of Daystar to Satan the more I realize that you have jettisoned what Scripture has revealed. What has been unveiled to us you seemed to have covered up again!

When I probe you about what you propose as aternatives to the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah revealed ["the prophetic past"] I seem met with mostly non-committal fog.

God has unveiled something about the despot behind all proud earthly despots. But you seemed to have jettisoned the revelation away, favoring instead that only earthly rulers are the referents of Ezekiel 28:12-19 and Isaiah 14:12-15.

This revelation is crucial to the church's spiritual warfare.
I don't know what you have left of this divinely exposed history of our enemy.

I think what has much more importants to YEC is that the hated Evolution concept be robbed of the alleged long lengths of time to have possibly occurred.

I think that you envision the main foe of the Christian church the concept of biological gradualism over long time. Some of us are concerned about some other foes as well. For example, the fight with man over the dominion for God's kingdom and the history of this conflict.

Originally posted by sonship
The unspecified interval of time before [b]Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 does not call for a belief in time before "the beginning".

I don't have to explain time before "the beginning". All I need to admit is that it is a mystery how long ago "the beginning" was. Sometime after "the beginning" of time, the Anointed Cherub, ...[text shortened]... xample, the fight with man over the dominion for God's kingdom and the history of this conflict.[/b]

Speaking of Ezekiel 28:12-19 and Isaiah 14:12-15 you say, "This revelation is crucial to the church's spiritual warfare."

The apostle Paul speaks the following about spiritual warefare:

Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

(Ephesians 6:11-17 NASB)

I used the word "analogy" when speaking about the man in Ezekiel 28. So I also recognize that this is more than just about an historical leader of the past, but also about the Antichrist who represents Satan, the Liar and Deceiver. Christ is the Truth. the Antichrist is the Lie. So we must be sure to gird our loins with the belt of truth.

I see the Antichrist as attempting to insert the Lie of evolution in the Genesis account of Creation by attempting to insert the idea of billions of years. So this attempt must be stopped by using the full armor of God.

Originally posted by sonship
The unspecified interval of time before [b]Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 does not call for a belief in time before "the beginning".

I don't have to explain time before "the beginning". All I need to admit is that it is a mystery how long ago "the beginning" was. Sometime after "the beginning" of time, the Anointed Cherub, ...[text shortened]... xample, the fight with man over the dominion for God's kingdom and the history of this conflict.[/b]

Groan ... TYPO.

I meant to write:

The unspecified interval of time between [edited] Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 does not call for a belief in time before "the beginning".

Originally posted by RJHinds
Speaking of Ezekiel 28:12-19 and Isaiah 14:12-15 you say, "This revelation is crucial to the church's spiritual warfare."

The apostle Paul speaks the following about spiritual warefare:
[quote][b]Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but ...[text shortened]... t the idea of billions of years. So this attempt must be stopped by using the full armor of God.[/b]

Speaking of Ezekiel 28:12-19 and Isaiah 14:12-15 you say, "This revelation is crucial to the church's spiritual warfare."

The battle is over the earth.
The battle is over realizing that man was created for two purposes:
Image and Dominion.

Image has something to do with expressing God.
Dominion has something to do with exercising God's ordained deputy authority over the creation.

Its late, but we can talk about this more perhaps tomorrow.

The apostle Paul speaks the following about spiritual warefare:

Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.


(Ephesians 6:11-17 NASB)

Amen. No disagreement about your reference to this passage.

I used the word "analogy" when speaking about the man in Ezekiel 28. So I also recognize that this is more than just about an historical leader of the past, but also about the Antichrist who represents Satan, the Liar and Deceiver. Christ is the Truth. the Antichrist is the Lie. So we must be sure to gird our loins with the belt of truth.

So it is not JUST about a dignitary of Tyre, either a prince or a king.
That's a start. I really thought you were losing all sense of this in order to rebut that any of these things happened during that span of time between Genesis 1:1 and 2.

But the problem is the mention of Eden.
It must be some other Eden than the one in Genesis.

Its characteristics and principles as a paradise realm must be the same. But the time and place must be different.

I see the Antichrist as attempting to insert the Lie of evolution in the Genesis account of Creation by attempting to insert the idea of billions of years. So this attempt must be stopped by using the full armor of God.

And I don't want to discourage you from the whole armor of God being girded on. But while I don't disagree with that there is an assault against the truth of God being the Creator of life through His wisdom, there are also other fronts that the church must tend to.

Originally posted by sonship

Speaking of Ezekiel 28:12-19 and Isaiah 14:12-15 you say, "This revelation is crucial to the church's spiritual warfare."

The battle is over the earth.
The battle is over realizing that man was created for two purposes:
[b]Image and Dominion.

Image has something to do with expressing God.
Dominion has something ...[text shortened]... he Creator of life through His wisdom, there are also other fronts that the church must tend to.[/b]

Why must the mention of Eden refer to some other Eden than the one in Genesis? Do you think it could be referring to an Eden in Heaven? If so, why?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Why must the mention of Eden refer to some other Eden than the one in Genesis? Do you think it could be referring to an Eden in Heaven? If so, why?

Why must the mention of Eden refer to some other Eden than the one in Genesis? Do you think it could be referring to an Eden in Heaven? If so, why?

Yes, I do think an Eden in Heaven is what Ezekiel means. Or the Eden as the garden of God on the holy mountain in the heavenlies as per Isaiah 14:13b.

The physics or geology or geography of this I don't pretend to comprehend.
But it communicates to mankind about a government, a realm, a dominion in which Satan in his ancient past moved about.

But if it is accurate that the EARTH became waste and empty as a result of divine overthrow in judgment from God's anger against an ancient Satan, it follows that his jurisdiction must have had something going on on the earth too.


Why did you ask me in one of these threads about what day the serpent was created ?

Originally posted by RJHinds
Why must the mention of Eden refer to some other Eden than the one in Genesis? Do you think it could be referring to an Eden in Heaven? If so, why?

Do you think it could be referring to an Eden in Heaven? If so, why?

"So I cast you out as a profane from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire." (Ezek. 28:16)

Heaven, I think, is being spoken of.
When God came down and appeared to Moses, Aaron and the 70 elders of Israel, the terrible blue colored fiery pavement of stones appeared beneath the feet of God.

Maybe these are the stones of fire.
The Cherub was cast out and down.
Heaven fits as a good location.

But I believe the extent of the being's jurisdiction and dominion was also in the earth. Maybe it was in a realm larger than the planet. But I don't know. And maybe one day we'll find out more about the very ancient past.