Spirituality
08 Feb 15
Originally posted by RJHindsI didn't say that these angels did that particular sin in the pre-adamic world. That was something they did at the time of Noah.
I have the definite assurance to say that they did not revolt against God between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. 😏
The havoc wrought by the hosts of Satan angelic or demonic during that pre-adamic time are unknown. Perhaps one day we will know and see that perhaps the whole of a larger area was affected.
Originally posted by sonshipThe reason that it is unknown is becasue it never happened. Did you ever think of that? 😏
I didn't say that these angels did that particular sin in the pre-adamic world. That was something they did at the time of Noah.
The havoc wrought by the hosts of Satan angelic or demonic during that pre-adamic time are unknown. Perhaps one day we will know and see that perhaps the whole of a larger area was affected.
Originally posted by RJHindsI thought of that Smugface. But Genesis 1:2, the prophecies of concerning Daystar and the Anointed Cherub in Ezekiel and Isaiah and the accumulation of other biblical data persuaded me that the dumbed down YEC theories were wrong and superficial.
The reason that it is unknown is becasue it never happened. Did you ever think of that? 😏
Originally posted by sonshipPerhaps you should take time to meditate on the following words from the apostle Peter and pray for understanding.
I thought of that Smugface. But [b]Genesis 1:2, the prophecies of concerning Daystar and the Anointed Cherub in Ezekiel and Isaiah and the accumulation of other biblical data persuaded me that the dumbed down YEC theories were wrong and superficial.[/b]
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
(2 Peter 2:1 NASB)
And the warning of the apostle Paul:
I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
(Acts 20:29-30 NASB)
Originally posted by RJHinds
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
I have never followed any so-called Christian teacher who denies the that bought them. The chief teachers who helped me to understand Genesis over the last 40 years, plus my own detailed study, were probably -
GH Pember,
Witness Lee,
Donald Barnhouse,
Watchman Nee,
Authur Custance,
maybe also Mary McDonough.
None of these saints denied the Master Who bought them.
Quite the contrary, each of them affirmed the Redemption of Jesus Christ until their last day.
Can you produce some evidence that any of these Christians denied the Master that bought them ?
Concerning Acts 20:29,29 -
I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.
This is a good verse. And the first part of the verse applies strongly to a number of the names that I listed above:
" But I consider my life of no account as if precious to myself, in order that I may finish my course and the ministry which I have received from the Lord Jesus to solemnly testify of the gospel of the grace of God." (v.24)
This certainly was true of both Watchman Nee, who was martyred in a Communist prison for his faith in Christ.
And it is certainly true of brother Witness Lee whose last word to the world was "Sacrifice". Not only did neither deny the Master that bought them but they poured out their lives for the sake of sinners and Christians everywhere. And they did so without smugness.
And I would say for the faithful teachers from whom I have received help that Acts 20:27 applies to those whose lives I know a little about -
"For I did not shrink from declaring to you all the counsel of God." (v.27)
I am happy to receive your warning. But these teachers just did not agree with your YEC interpretation. This doesn't mean that they were fierce wolves not sparing the flock. They just taught something differently from your opinion on Genesis 1.
There was nothing "perverse" spoken by them in doing this. It was just different from your interpretations.
Originally posted by sonshipBut we both can't be right, now, can we?But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
I have never followed any so-called Christian teacher who denies the that bought them. The chief t ...[text shortened]... othing "perverse" spoken by them in doing this. It was just different from your interpretations.
And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
(Mark 10:5-6 KJV)
Did you notice that Jesus said it was from the beginning of creation that God made them male and female? It was not a billion years after creation, now, was it?
Are you too going to deny the Master?
Originally posted by RJHinds
But we both can't be right, now, can we?
We agree on a number of things, besides the several major tenets of the Christian faith. And we are both human beings. So we are both capable of making mistakes in interpretation of the Bible.
I do consider and re-consider the merit of some of the things you have said.
And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
(Mark 10:5-6 KJV)
Did you notice that Jesus said it was from the beginning of creation that God made them male and female? It was not a billion years after creation, now, was it?
Are you too going to deny the Master?
No I am not going to deny the Master who bought me. I am going to arrive at an interpretation of that passage somewhat different than yours.
There is no time from the beginning of creation that human beings have not been created male and female. I think the Lord was referring to Genesis 1:27.
"And God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."
Of course in the second account of the creation of man you have God creating Adam the male (Gen. 2:7). And then after God wet his appetite for a helpmeet, He builded a woman for him out of his rib (Gen. 2:21-25).
Some argue that Mark 10:5,6 proves that there could be no preadamic world. It may be a good argument but I don't think it is good enough.
The Holy Spirit had Paul write under inspiration -
"And you yourselves also know, Philippians, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I went out from Macadonia, ..." (Phil. 4:15)
I don't think Paul used the phrase " in the BEGINNING OF THE GOSPEL " to mean that absolutely no other gospel activity preceeded his going out from Macadonia to preach.
Neither do I believe " ... from the beginning of creation" HAS to mean that before Adam there could have been no Anointed Cherub to rebel and cause God's judgment to render the earth waste and empty (Gen. 1:2) .
The phrase "from the beginning of creation" could mean the beginning of the creation of human beings.
But if not, I think "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen. 1:1) and the creation of man on the sixth day in verse 27 still render the absolute truth of the Lord's statement -
" ... from the beginning of creation, He made them male and female."
It was not a billion years after creation, now, was it?
It was the beginning of the creation of man.
And Moses, the writer of Genesis also wrote Exodus. And I showed you that sometimes he did not write matters in a strictly historical sequence. Sometimes he wrote things in a spiritually significant sequence.
I pointed out to you that historically the events of Exodus 18 are inserted in between the historical flow of chapter 17 and 19. But actually Moses was referring to something that happened after the building of the tabernacle in Exodus 40.
I think another possible example is what Moses wrote about what to do with the manna in putting it into a pot before the testimony which was in the ark of the covenant.
Exodus 16:32-34 " And Moses said, This is what Jehovah has commanded, Let an omerful of it [manna] be kept throughout your generations, that they may see the bread which I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you up out from the land of Egypt. (v.32)
And Moses said to Aaron, Take a pot, and put an omerful of manna in it, and place it before Jehovah, to be kept. (v.33)
As Jehovah commanded Moses, so Aaron placed it before the testimony to be kept." (v.34)
The ark of the covenant where the tablets (the testimony) was not built by the events of chapter 16. The ark with the tablets were the results of events in chapter 19 and 20. Instructions to build the ark into which the golden pot of manna were placed before the testimony, were given in chapter 25.
This is the same writer under inspiration who wrote Genesis. So sometimes a higher priority than historical sequence is taking place. There is an order according to the importance of what God wants to reveal at a given moment.
And so I think it is the same with Genesis 1:1,2. The details of why the preadamic world was judged are not spelled out in Genesis. We have to wait until Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14.
None of this understanding does damage to Christ as the Master or the Redeemer. In fact I think the fuller Gospel requires the exposure of Satan's preadamic rebellion and history - as much as God has chosen to unveil to us.
Originally posted by sonshipYou are on very dangerous ground when you seek to integrate God’s truth, as revealed in Scripture, with man’s truth, as currently understood and taught, such as billions of years, from outside the Scriptures. Be careful of the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming of those that twist the scrptures to their own destruction.But we both can't be right, now, can we?
We agree on a number of things, besides the several major tenets of the Christian faith. And we are both human beings. So we are both capable of making mistakes in interpretation of the Bible.
I do consider and re-consider the merit of some of the things you have said.
[q ...[text shortened]... exposure of Satan's preadamic rebellion and history - as much as God has chosen to unveil to us.
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
(2 Peter 3:14-18 NKJV)
Originally posted by RJHinds
You are on very dangerous ground when you seek to integrate God’s truth, as revealed in Scripture, with man’s truth, as currently understood and taught, such as billions of years, from outside the Scriptures.
Your last few posts have been in the tone of dire warnings.
You may always pray for me as I do for you. I am in good hands.
I always us the expression "unspecified" as to the distance in time from this moment back to the beginning of the universe (Genesis 1:1). Our point is not to count the years. Our point is to expose the enemy of God's economy of his ancient schemes.
When reading your YEC backround of the church's enemy it seems you obscure and make very foggy what the Bible has made naked and exposed of this dark one.
I see you very concerned about Evolutionary gradualism. And in that that can rob God of His unique role as unique Creator, it is not the only danger the church faces.
The exposing of Satan in Ezekiel and Isaiah arm the Christians so that they are not ignorant of his devices.
Be careful of the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming of those that twist the scrptures to their own destruction.
I think I need to be careful of those who twist away from isaiah 14:12-14 the prophetic past exposure of the Daystar. Some twist the revelation away because they want to refer only to a mere human ruler.
I think I need to beware of the teaching of those who twist away the revelation of the Anointed Cherub's past from Ezekiel 28:12-18 to make it also refer only to a human despot.
The twistings I have seen to keep these passages from doing thier job to make Satan's sorted history naked is a danger in the spiritual warfare. He told us because we need to be armed with this truth in order to overcome.
When someone arrives at a theory that the serpent in Eden was not not yet fallen angel, when the first creature he lied to was Eve, when the angels that followed him only did so after man was tempted, when one insists that everywhere demon possession is mentioned those are bad angels, I am pretty sure some strong twisting has had an influence on that teaching.
I think to such twistings the only thing that matters is to counter great lengths of time in order to deprive Evolution of time for gradualism. I think Creation evangelism has probably made Evolution the arch enemy who is exceeded by no other.
While we agree Evolution can rob God of His role as Creator. We see other schemes of the enemy as well. IE. the battle over the earth and who will have the image and dominion over God's creation.
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
This teaching has certainly armed the saints and enabled them to "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
One reason for this is that instead of thinking God wants to take people to heaven forever, we see that Jesus Christ has the intention that His overcoming saints reign "on the earth" over which the battle is waged.
I don't think some of you YEC's understand this very well. You seem mostly concerned about the age of the old creation. But the New Testament is more concerned with the organic emergence of the "new creation" for the image and dominion of sons of God over the earth.
I think for this reason, in these last days, God's has brought more to light passages about the great warfare over the earth between God and Satan. The preadamic events of Satan's fall are important to understand the nature of the church's spiritual warfare.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.
Amen.