The Gap Theory

Originally posted by RJHinds

What I am trying to point out is that Lucifer was seen as perfect until iniquity was found in him by his adversarial act of becoming Satan the Devil by possessing the body of one of god's physical creatures in order to deceive the woman in the Garden of Eden.

Lucifer's example of possessing the body of the Serpent made him the Devil, referred to as Beelzebub chief of the demons by the Pharisees. These demons were those sons of God (angels) who came unto the daughters of men to take wives of those they chose. This speaks of the possession of the body just as the Devil first did to the serpent. A demon is like the Devil in that it is an angel that left its former spiritual state of no marriage in Heaven to possess the body of a physical being on Earth.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] What I am trying to point out is that Lucifer was seen as perfect until iniquity was found in him by his adversarial act of becoming Satan the Devil by possessing the body of one of god's physical creatures in order to deceive the woman in the Garden of Eden.

Lucifer's example of possessing the body of the Serpent made him the Devil, referred to ...[text shortened]... l bodies of human women and as a result these woman had babies, babies who became the Nephilim ?

Originally posted by RJHinds
That could be it or it could be that these fallen angels possessed the bodies of the males and then were able to take females as their wives. Jesus said their is no marriage by angels in Heaven so it could be that the angels would not have the ability to have children by the women by just possessing their bodies. It is not entirely clear to me what exactly happened other than they must have possessed physical bodies just as the Devil and demons do.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it roams through waterless places looking for rest, and not finding rest, it then says, I'll go back to my house where I came from.'

"And angels who did not keep their own principality but abandoned their own dwelling place, He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day."

... God did not spare the angels who sinned but delivered them to gloomy pits, having cast them down to Tartarus, being kept for judgment ..." ( 2 Peter 1:4)

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it roams through waterless places looking for rest, and not finding rest, it then says, I'll go back to my house where I came from.'

Need a rest.

Originally posted by sonship

[b] Holman Christian Standard Bible
"When an unclean spirit comes out of a man, it roams through waterless places looking for rest, and not finding rest, it then says, I'll go back to my house where I came from.'

Are the demons simply fallen angels ?
I would teach that they are not.
However, in the case of the pro ...[text shortened]... significance of the demons causing the herd of hogs to rush down into the sea.

cont. latter[/b]

"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

Originally posted by RJHinds

Now magic is done by illusion and slight of hand, it is not true as are miracles of God. So I would not put Pharoah's magican's magic snakes in the same category with Moses performing miracles with the help of God.

Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers; and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret spells.

That is, each one threw down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs." (Exo. 7:11,12)

An interesting comment on the matter of Pharoah's magicians:

Pharaoh - called the wise men - חכמים chacamim, the men of learning. Sorcerers, כשפים cashshephim, those who reveal hidden things; probably from the Arabic root kashafa, to reveal, uncover, etc., signifying diviners, or those who pretended to reveal what was in futurity, to discover things lost, to find hidden treasures, etc. Magicians, חרטמי chartummey, decipherers of abstruse writings. See Clarke's note on Genesis 41:8.

They also did in like manner with their enchantments - The word להתים lahatim, comes from mor להט lahat, to burn, to set on fire; and probably signifies such incantations as required lustral fires, sacrifices, fumigations, burning of incense, aromatic and odoriferous drugs, etc., as the means of evoking departed spirits or assistant demons, by whose ministry, it is probable, the magicians in question wrought some of their deceptive miracles: for as the term miracle signifies properly something which exceeds the powers of nature or art to produce, (see Exodus 7:9; ), hence there could be no miracle in this case but those wrought, through the power of God, by the ministry of Moses and Aaron. There can be no doubt that real serpents were produced by the magicians. On this subject there are two opinions:

That the serpents were such as they, either by juggling or sleight of hand, had brought to the place, and had secreted till the time of exhibition, as our common conjurers do in the public fairs, etc.

That the serpents were brought by the ministry of a familiar spirit, which, by the magic flames already referred to, they had evoked for the purpose.
Both these opinions admit the serpents to be real, and no illusion of the sight, as some have supposed. The first opinion appears to me insufficient to account for the phenomena of the case referred to. If the magicians threw down their rods, and they became serpents after they were thrown down, as the text expressly says, Exodus 7:12, juggling or sleight of hand had nothing farther to do in the business, as the rods were then out of their hands. If Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods, their sleight of hand was no longer concerned. A man, by dexterity of hand, may so far impose on his spectators as to appear to eat a rod; but for rods lying on the ground to become serpents, and one of these to devour all the rest so that it alone remained, required something more than juggling. How much more rational at once to allow that these magicians had familiar spirits who could assume all shapes, change the appearances of the subjects on which they operated, or suddenly convey one thing away and substitute another in its place! Nature has no such power, and art no such influence as to produce the effects attributed here and in the succeeding chapters to the Egyptian magicians.

Originally posted by sonship
Previous points I may respond to latter. At the end you wrote:

Now magic is done by illusion and slight of hand, it is not true as are miracles of God. So I would not put Pharoah's magican's magic snakes in the same category with Moses performing miracles with the help of God.

I didn't say it was a miracle of God.

Look carefu ...[text shortened]... not by slight of hand but by [b]their secret spells.

A major doctrinal point it is not.[/b]

Originally posted by RJHinds
I believe I understand you now. You believe the magicians were using powers from the Devil or demons to perform their magic. Yes, that may be possible, but i do not see how any of that has much to do with angelic spirit beings making their own physical bodies. As i pointed out before, Jesus said spirits do not have flesh and bone.

And the two angels came to Sodom in the evening ... (Gen 19:1) ... And he made them a feast and baked unkeavened bread, and they ate (v.3) ... But the men stretched out their hand and brought Lot into the house to them and shut the door (v.10) ... But he lingered; so the men seized his hand and the hand of his wife and the hand of his two daughters, Jehovah being merciful to him, and they brought him out and set him outside of the city (v.16)

Originally posted by sonship
I am not sure that what Jesus said proves your point.

The two angels that visited Lot physically took Lot by the hand to lead him out of Sodom.

[quote] [b]And the two angels came to Sodom in the evening ... (Gen 19:1) ... And he made them a feast and baked unkeavened bread, and they ate (v.3) ... But the men stretched out their hand and brought L ...[text shortened]... So I am not sure what Jesus said there renders the event of angels to physical men, impossible.

Now the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, and said, “My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.

And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”

Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord.

Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. And he said, “Now behold, my lords, please turn aside into your servant’s house, and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.”

Then the two men said to Lot, “Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place; for we are about to destroy this place, because their outcry has become so great before the Lord that the Lord has sent us to destroy it.”

Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven

Originally posted by RJHinds

... (Genesis 19:1-2, 12-13, 24) ...

Do you have another way to reconcile what Christ said with these quotes from Genesis?

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Luke 24:34 does not present a major problem to me on the matter.

As for the bowing before angels? This doesn't present a major problem to me. By the time of the book of Revelation John worshipping the angel was rebuked, true (Rev. 19:10; 22:8,9).

I think John the Evangelist being overwhelmed with awe to fall down to worship the ange ...[text shortened]... revelation and Abraham showing respect in bowing in humility, I think, were not quite the same.[/b]

"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

You don't have a problem with any of that, but I do. So how can you explain them to me so I don't have a problem with them in light of your interpretation?

"And the angels who did not keep their own principality but ABANDONED their own dwelling place, He has kept in eternal bonds under gloom for the judgment of the great day."

Maybe you can start with these two:

"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

(Luke 24:39 NASB)

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

"And angels who DID NOT KEEP THEIR OWN PRINCIPALITY but ABANDONED THEIR OWN DWELLING ..."

(Matthew 22:30 NASB)

As I understand these verses, Angelic spirits do not marry in Heaven mainly because they do not have flesh and bone bodies that are equiped to reproduce by marriage. Angelic spirits can only reproduce on Earth by possessing the same type of physical bodies that God created on Earth made of flesh and bone with reproductive organs.

Compare: Rev. 11:6 - "These [the two Godly witnesses] have the authority to shut heaven that no rain may fall during the days of their prophecy; and they have have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to smite the earth with every plague as often as they desire."

Revelation 13:13-15 - And he [the false prophet] does great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth before men.

And he deceives those who dwell on the earth on account of the signs which he was given power to do before the beast, commanding those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast, who had the stroke of the sword and revived.

And power was given to him to give him to give breath to the image of the beast that the image of the beast might even speak and cause whoever would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."

Originally posted by sonship

You don't have a problem with any of that, but I do. So how can you explain them to me so I don't have a problem with them in light of your interpretation?

What the evil angels did was what they were NOT SUPPOSED to do. That is why they were especially judged.

[quote] [b]"And the angels who did not keep their own principality bu ...[text shortened]... D NOT have done this. I do not have the definite assurance to say they COULD NOT have done this.