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15 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidAgain:
I think you can not defend that!
'As a human, I have a thorough understanding of the terms 'loving' and 'eternal torment' and enough logic to ascertain that the two are not compatible.'
By all means though, highlight the weakness in my position. (Preferably In a way that does not compromise your own humanity).
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15 Sep 19
So nothing unequivocal from any of the three protagonists in the OP.
Just more of the same old same old crying “it’s what the bible says” “it’s all literal” “it’s all literal except the bits I don’t agree with” “it’s objective truth” “it’s Jesus’ perfect justice” “haters gonna hate” “we are so evil...it’s hard to describe how evil we are...the evil is so evil that all god can do is burn us alive” and the classic...
“if god were fair, he’d burn everyone alive”
KellyJay at his best.
15 Sep 19
@divegeester saidThat's not what I'm saying. Some terms are metaphorical because they refer to a reality that literal terms cannot describe.
So those scriptures pertaining to non Christians being cast into lakes of fire and their suffering being everlasting, which sonship, KellyJay and others claim are literal, are in your opinion actually metaphorical?
For example the "lake of fire". It is literally real. It exists. There can be no denying it. But who has actually seen it? If you saw it how would you describe it?
Or "everlasting punishment". That is not a metaphor. Would we call "everlasting life" a metaphor? Of course not! It means exactly what it says. It's literal. The same exact word, "everlasting", is used for both references.
"Torment"~ basanos
Outline of Biblical Usage:
I. a touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
II. the rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
II. torture, torment, acute pains
A. of the pains of a disease
B. of those in hell after death
That word appears in three verses in the New Testament.
Matthew 4:24
And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:28
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Take note that the account of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable, or an allegory, or a nice metaphorical story used by Jesus to illustrate a truth. It is a literal account of a rich man and two very real individuals whose names are named, and the dialogue between them from the perspective of each relative to the place where they are after physical death.
15 Sep 19
@secondson saidSo you in fact believe that some people will be tormented for eternity.
That's not what I'm saying. Some terms are metaphorical because they refer to a reality that literal terms cannot describe.
For example the "lake of fire". It is literally real. It exists. There can be no denying it. But who has actually seen it? If you saw it how would you describe it?
Or "everlasting punishment". That is not a metaphor. Would we call "everlasting li ...[text shortened]... between them from the perspective of each relative to the place where they are after physical death.
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15 Sep 19
@secondson saidI appreciate that our relationship here has been combative to say the least so I do thank you for taking the time to reply. However without meaning to appear obstructive, I’m still not clear on your base position on this:
That's not what I'm saying. Some terms are metaphorical because they refer to a reality that literal terms cannot describe.
For example the "lake of fire". It is literally real. It exists. There can be no denying it. But who has actually seen it? If you saw it how would you describe it?
Or "everlasting punishment". That is not a metaphor. Would we call "everlasting li ...[text shortened]... between them from the perspective of each relative to the place where they are after physical death.
Will non Christians be everlastingly burnt alive (or whatever language you wish to use) or not?
It really is just a yes or a no, with whatever biblical rational you choose to support it.
15 Sep 19
@rajk999 saidRevelation 14:9-11
So you in fact believe that some people will be tormented for eternity.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 20:11-15
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
15 Sep 19
@divegeester saidSee my post above in reply to Rajk.
I appreciate that our relationship here has been combative to say the least so I do thank you for taking the time to reply. However without meaning to appear obstructive, I’m still not clear on your base position on this:
Will non Christians be everlastingly burnt alive (or whatever language you wish to use) or not?
It really is just a yes or a no, with whatever biblical rational you choose to support it.
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15 Sep 19
@secondson saidWe all read the bible and know what is written.
Revelation 14:9-11
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the ...[text shortened]... cond death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The unsaved are well informed and reasonably well read on Christian doctrine. We have to be unequivocal on this matter.
Thank you again in advance.
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15 Sep 19
@secondson saidThank you, please see my reply just above.
See my post above in reply to Rajk.
15 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidLoving someone does not mean they can overlook an offense; an owner of a business with lots of investors discovers his son is embezzling from the company, that cannot be hushed up out of feelings or loyalty for his son. Letting that continue or hiding it makes the owner guilty too. God is not human He is just, righteous, and holy as well as loving. Each word He says, each thing He does, every action He takes has to be in complete agreement with all the attributes of His nature.
Again:
'As a human, I have a thorough understanding of the terms 'loving' and 'eternal torment' and enough logic to ascertain that the two are not compatible.'
By all means though, highlight the weakness in my position. (Preferably In a way that does not compromise your own humanity).
15 Sep 19
@kellyjay said"His nature"?
Loving someone does not mean they can overlook an offense; an owner of a business with lots of investors discovers his son is embezzling from the company, that cannot be hushed up out of feelings or loyalty for his son. Letting that continue or hiding it makes the owner guilty too. God is not human He is just, righteous, and holy as well as loving. Each word He says, each th ...[text shortened]... e does, every action He takes has to be in complete agreement with all the attributes of His nature.
A vengeful, wrathful torturer?
15 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidHow many millions and millions of years of torture would be the "just" and "loving"- and secret - punishment of an employer embezzling from a company? Or should the punishment be billions and billions of years?
Loving someone does not mean they can overlook an offense; an owner of a business with lots of investors discovers his son is embezzling from the company, that cannot be hushed up out of feelings or loyalty for his son.
15 Sep 19
@divegeester saidAs you know, I don't see the nature of the God figure you and Suzianne worship as being the same as the nature of the God figure KellyJay and sonship describe and worship. Totally different, at their very essence. Different God figures.
Your question here is the pivotal point in all this; the nature of God.
15 Sep 19
@secondson saidSo you in fact believe that some people will be tormented for eternity.
Revelation 14:9-11
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the ...[text shortened]... cond death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.