01 Feb 18
I'd like to point out that it is somewhat ironic that the Christian perspective now catches flak for admitting that the church cannot be perfect due to the flaws of men...
We are regularly told that we shouldn't expect teenagers to abstain from premarital sex and should keep "realistic" attitudes about behavior...
But there's this expectation that we literally have a perfect church.
Also: I am curious as to what would constitute a perfect church in the eyes of an unbeliever. Like what would we have to be doing for you to approve of us.
Or do you like... literally agree with Christians in the idea that man cannot attain any kind of perfection, especially not in large groups?
You guys should be a lot harsher on Buddhists than us, then. We have a whole lot of common ground on this one.
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01 Feb 18
Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleWhat flack? From who? You have evidence of this?
I'd like to point out that it is somewhat ironic that the Christian perspective now catches flak for admitting that the church cannot be perfect due to the flaws of men...
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01 Feb 18
Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleGotcha.
RIght, it just isn't going to have universal appeal. Some people just don't get it. And that's OK. I hope you will one day see it as a perfect product.
But this has always been the case.
Some people see and hear, but do not understand, as is hinted at in Mark 4.
If you ask for understanding and what the nature of the gospels are, and seek ...[text shortened]... true heart, you will receive understanding.
One of the keys to this is abandoning all pride.
So it's my pride that prevents me from recognizing the perfection of the product you're peddling, not the gaping contradictions, divinely driven horrors and abominations? It's not the innocent child dying of cancer, the all-powerful and perfectly loving God that can't or won't intervene,......it's my pride?
Is it your pride that stops you from seeing the overwhelming evidence for humans being around for millions of years?
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeI would say it is the spirit within your heart. This is what originates actions.
Gotcha.
So it's my pride that prevents me from recognizing the perfection of the product you're peddling, not the gaping contradictions, divinely driven horrors and abominations? It's not the innocent child dying of cancer, the all-powerful and perfectly loving God that can't or won't intervene,......it's my pride?
Is it your pride that stops you from seeing the overwhelming evidence for humans being around for millions of years?
01 Feb 18
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeFirst of all, do forgive me if I have shown any pride. I hope not to do that. It is the greatest barrier to spritiual progress and it is something that we all suffer from. It's part of our character.
Gotcha.
So it's my pride that prevents me from recognizing the perfection of the product you're peddling, not the gaping contradictions, divinely driven horrors and abominations? It's not the innocent child dying of cancer, the all-powerful and perfectly loving God that can't or won't intervene,......it's my pride?
Is it your pride that stops you from seeing the overwhelming evidence for humans being around for millions of years?
And, as I believe in theistic evolution more or less, it is part of the fallen nature of man to be put into the body of an advanced Great Ape and, essentially, to be subjected to the mental dispositions and moods of what really amounts to corporeal and animalistic nature.
This is what we call, in Orthodoxy, Ancestral Sin, as we reject Original Sin.
I will not say anything about you and pride. In fact, I would probably bet that you are more humble than me if I had to place a dollar on it. But, since I believe all people suffer from a sense of pride now and then, and because I believe that humility is the key to unlocking spiritual growth, I suggest to anyone that they humble themselves in prayer, before God, and to seek inspiration.
That's worked for me but, obviously, I'm not exactly able to sustain this effort consistently, lol.
01 Feb 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterFor starters, you could look at the quotation from Suzanne.
What flack? From who? You have evidence of this?
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01 Feb 18
Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleCool, though you kind of glossed over the meat in my post.
First of all, do forgive me if I have shown any pride. I hope not to do that. It is the greatest barrier to spritiual progress and it is something that we all suffer from. It's part of our character.
And, as I believe in theistic evolution more or less, it is part of the fallen nature of man to be put into the body of an advanced Great Ape and, e ...[text shortened]... t's worked for me but, obviously, I'm not exactly able to sustain this effort consistently, lol.
1. The 'perfect product' is a God who is simultaneously all-powerful and all-loving. How can the existence of an innocent child dying of cancer validate this? Either he can't (not all powerful) intervene, or he won't (not perfectly loving) intervene. - Either way, the product itself is flawed.
2. All evidence points to humans having been around for millions of years. You casually posted that the world is just over 7000 years old. - Why are you not open to this overwhelming evidence?
01 Feb 18
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke(1) I reject the idea that death here is the end of existence.
Cool, though you kind of glossed over the meat in my post.
1. The 'perfect product' is a God who is simultaneously all-powerful and all-loving. How can the existence of an innocent child dying of cancer validate this? Either he can't (not all powerful) intervene, or he won't (not perfectly loving) intervene. - Either way, the product itself is fl ...[text shortened]... hat the world is just over 7000 years old. - Why are you not open to this overwhelming evidence?
I know it sounds very callous for me to say to someone, and I'd never dare say it to their face, that their young child who suffered of cancer and died young is "part of God's plan." That'd be incredibly rude. But I will say that I believe in the ressurrection and the final judgment of souls, and that the souls of children who died of cancer are surely meriting eternal life in the Kingdom of God surrounded by God, the Angels, and the Saints.
God does not need to intervene because the outcome is not a tragedy. It's never a tragedy.
This is perhaps too Eastern of a theodicy for some people to stomach but that's what I believe.
(2) Yeah, the evidence does point there, and I am not sure how I would ever defend that the world is 7k years old. I said it kind of jokingly and meant to get a rise out of people, which is kind of silly and immature. Forgive me. I don't want to like bait & switch people.
At the time I felt that much of the forum was hostile to me and I was more willing to just..."crap post" a little, for lack of a more eloquent expression.
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Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleI 'do' happen to believe 'death is the end of existence', but that's beside the point.
(1) I reject the idea that death here is the end of existence.
I know it sounds very callous for me to say to someone, and I'd never dare say it to their face, that their young child who suffered of cancer and died young is "part of God's plan." That'd be incredibly rude. But I will say that I believe in the ressurrection and the final judgment of ...[text shortened]... e and I was more willing to just..."crap post" a little, for lack of a more eloquent expression.
The question is not about what happens after death (for Christians) but why innocent people (children or otherwise) are permitted to 'suffer' in this current life by a loving deity. Sorry, but even eternal life and happiness in death doesn't explain away or justify such Earthly suffering. To me, it translates as:
"What does it matter if I stab Bob in the hand repeatedly with a fork, he's going to enjoy a lovely supper."
To be honest, that's the ugly side of Christianity. If part of your God's plan necessitates the suffering of children with cancer then I question whether such a God merits your worship, or indeed even exists.
Or perhaps just needs a better plan.
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Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleYou’re using another poster in this forum, and none other than the scornful suzianne as evidence of your claim that the Christian perspective draws flack because of admitting it cant be perfect because of flawed people in the church?
For starters, you could look at the quotation from Suzanne.
Originally posted by @jacob-vervilleThe way I see it is failure to frontload some of these principles of the teachings of Christ has resulted in some of the failures of Christianity which has chasted people away from the church rather than draw them in.
Yeah, you know what, I agree with this, though I would not frontload this as a lesson for life.
I believe in a 'freedom in the non-essential,' and I fully endorse brotherhood and sisterhood with Christians of other denominations and recognizing them as my great allies.
But, if we over-emphasize ecumenism, we actually become a bit weaker colle ...[text shortened]... be eloquent right now so I will leave it at that. Perhaps you have ahd the same thought before.
Actually this topic might be a good idea for a separate thread.
01 Feb 18
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeOk , I don't have a different answer except to emphasize that suffering in this life is purposeful, and it shouldn't be thought of as a negative, but as something that grow a us and teaches us. I've even heard it said that, if you aren't feeling attacked, you're doing something wrong, e.g., you should desire challenges in yoir life and see it as a sign of faithfulness.
I 'do' happen to believe 'death is the end of existence', but that's beside the point.
The question is not about what happens after death (for Christians) but why innocent people (children or otherwise) are permitted to 'suffer' in this current life by a loving deity. Sorry, but even eternal life and happiness in death doesn't explain away or ju ...[text shortened]... r such a God merits your worship, or indeed even exists.
Or perhaps just needs a better plan.
I know that kind of reasoning might seem rather alien or morbid, but it fits well into our system of considerations.
So. Suffering is purposeful and a temporary phenomena for children and for the humble and noble hearted.
If you disagree with that further, I think we will just go in circles on that. But yeah, I would understand why that bothers you a lot.
Its also very good of you to want to not see suffering and to feel that the pain of others is very relevant. So, while I disagree, your heart is right to feel the pain of others suffering, and I understand yoir perspective.
01 Feb 18
Originally posted by @divegeesterYeah , I think her sentiment isn't that alien to people.
You’re using another poster in this forum, and none other than the scornful suzianne as evidence of your claim that the Christian perspective draws flack because of admitting it cant be perfect because of flawed people in the church?
I've heard it elsewhere.
Originally posted by @thinkofoneLet's say Jesus actually said "My sheep hear my voice,..".
Let's say that new document is found. In it is a proclamation that it is the word of God. Is that enough for you to believe that it is, in fact, the word of God? Or do you judge it by a different standard?
What you've provided here is similar. Just once removed.
Can you hear God's voice in the scriptures as contained in The Book, or in just the scriptures you cherry pick to believe are authentic?
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Originally posted by @thinkofone
Thoughts?[/b]
By and large, I find the words attributed to Jesus while He walked the Earth to be reasonably sound and reasonably coherent within themselves. What's more, I find much of what was attributed to Him to be remarkably deep and quite profound. As such, by and large, I find the words attributed to Jesus while He walked the Earth to be "true".
The ministry of Jesus Christ continues on until this present moment today -
" Now in the things which are being said the chief point is this: We have such a High Priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
A MINISTER of the holy places, even of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man." (Hebrews 8:1)
So you do not believe that today Jesus Christ is a Minister with a heavenly ministry towards His redeemed people.
You should just speak for yourself if you have nothing ministered to you by Jesus Christ.
Probably the reason why you don't sense any ministry of Christ TODAY to you is that you deny that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Not only do you deny that Jesus is Lord as He is enthroned at the right hand of God today in the third heavens, but you most certainly deny that Jesus was Lord even while He walked on earth BEFORE His death and resurrection.
There is no ministry to you from Christ because neither then nor now do you confess Christ as your Lord. This is completely different from Paul's attitude.