The Gospel of Jesus vs The Gospel of Paul

Originally posted by @jacob-verville
I guess we could do something like that.

I'll get around to talking about that at some point. But, frankly, I have no idea on the timeline for that.

I have a full day tomorrow.

I guess we all work hard. Just post whenever you can.
I will start it sometime today.

Originally posted by @jacob-verville
Then, I definitely do not see your point. I thought we were just talking about the weakness of fulfillment.

What is the different gospel you are talking about, then?

I thought we were just talking about the weakness of fulfillment.

We weren't. You drew yet another illogical conclusion.

What is the different gospel you are talking about, then?

Reread the OP. In fact, reread all of our posts to each other.

After that, address the following which I directed to you earlier:

In the first quote box in the OP, an argument is made that the "redemptive work on the cross for salvation" is not part of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. If you believe that the argument is incorrect, then show where it is, in fact, in the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. If you believe it is correct, then make a case that the gospel of Paul should be the foundation rather than the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry.

Originally posted by @sonship
[b] The idea that Matthew 26:28 is alluding to His death is nonsensical on so many different levels. Some of which I've already cited.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

You're deceived. What else would the "POUR[ING] OUT" of His blood mean except His DEATH?

[quote] "For this is My blood of the co ...[text shortened]... d.

You're only displaying how deeply dishonest is your twisting of the New Testament Gospel.

What else would the "POUR[ING] OUT" of His blood mean except His DEATH?

Focus jaywill, I've already explained why interpreting it your way doesn't hold water. In fact, I gave another reason in the post to which you've just responded - which you seem to have lost track of. You get lost so easily.

Here's what I posted earlier:

In Matthew 26:26-28 when Jesus tells them to eat His body (flesh) and drink His blood, He is really speaking of them eating and drinking His words just as He does in John 6. Jesus wants His words to abide in them.

What's also interesting is the meaning of the word translated as 'forgiveness' in Matthew 26:28 literally means 'freedom'.

So what Jesus means in Matthew 26:28 is "for [these are My words] of the covenant, which is poured out for many for [freedom from] sins" which parallels what He said in John 8:31-36 about those who abide in His word being freed of committing sin. It's marvelous how the interrelationships between John 6:26-63, John 8:31-36 and Matthew 26:26-28 line up.

This makes so much more sense than Him making some really awkward reference to His future death. Especially in light of Luke 22:19 where He says "do this in remembrance of Me." He's asking them to do it in remembrance of His words - NOT in "remembrance" of His death - which hasn't even happened yet.

Here's the post to which you just responded:

In the OP I applauded the intellectual honesty of those I quoted.

If only you were willing to approach with intellectual honesty the points made in the post to which you responded. Instead you chose to ignore them.

The idea that Matthew 26:28 is alluding to His death is nonsensical on so many different levels. Some of which I've already cited.

Here's another:
Following is the definition of "covenant" from dictionary.com:
"In the Bible, an agreement between God and his people, in which God makes promises to his people and, usually, requires certain conduct from them."

A "covenant" consists of words. This is what Jesus delivered in the gospel that He preached during His ministry. It's nonsensical to say that "He was speaking about His imminent trip to the cross." Especially since he wasn't speaking in future tense

.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
Presumably you understood the point of my previous post.

Let's look at that verse in its entirety:
John 10
27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;"

Compare this to:
Matthew 7
21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ...[text shortened]... ianity, by and large, has made of what Paul had to say. Conceptually they are light years apart.

I question your understanding of what salvation means, and based on what you said above, how salvation is obtained.

So I ask you this; what part do you believe you play in the redemption of your soul? In other words, where were you when God, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,.." 2 Timothy 1:9

Originally posted by @secondson
I question your understanding of what salvation means, and based on what you said above, how salvation is obtained.

So I ask you this; what part do you believe you play in the redemption of your soul? In other words, where were you when God, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,.." 2 Timothy 1:9

In other words, where were you when God, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,.." 2 Timothy 1:9

Given what I wrote in the OP, why have you framed your question in the gospel of Paul?

Once again:

As for me, I stand solely on the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. By and large, I find the words attributed to Jesus while He walked the Earth to be reasonably sound and reasonably coherent within themselves. What's more, I find much of what was attributed to Him to be remarkably deep and quite profound. As such, by and large, I find the words attributed to Jesus while He walked the Earth to be "true". I don't share that view of the mythology and beliefs that the NT writers wrapped around them. At best, they can merely echo His words. At worst, they deviate from His words and at times substantially so.

Pay particular attention to the part in bold in the above quote box.

I question your understanding of what salvation means, and based on what you said above, how salvation is obtained.

I question your understanding of the gospel preached by Jesus during His ministry. It's the topic of this thread.

If you want to understand what Jesus wants from his followers, you need to look to the gospel that Jesus preached during His ministry - not on what others taught. Jesus taught that one must understand His words - not just understand His words, but believe His words - not just believe His words, but follow his words - not just follow His words, but KEEP His words - KEEP His words as He kept His father's words. This point cannot be overly emphasized.

Jesus wants his followers to become a son of God as He is a son of God, i.e., Jesus wants his followers to become one with God as He is one with God, i. e., one with the will of God, i. e. one who does not go against the will of God, i. e. one who does not commit sin.

Ultimately, it's about transformation. Transformation from a "bad tree" to a "good tree". Transformation from one "born of the flesh" to one "born of the spirit". Transformation from a "slave" of committing sin to one "free" from committing sin.

One does not have "eternal life" / cannot "live in the kingdom" until this transformation is complete.

Read the gospel Jesus preached during His ministry and you will see all of the above. Read the words of others and you will see something very different. From what I can tell, the vast majority of Christians follow the words of others - not the words of Jesus. Yet inexplicably they call themselves "followers of Jesus".

Originally posted by @secondson
I question your understanding of what salvation means, and based on what you said above, how salvation is obtained.

So I ask you this; what part do you believe you play in the redemption of your soul? In other words, where were you when God, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,.." 2 Timothy 1:9

I question YOUR understanding of this passage 2 TIm 1 :9

1. Paul addresses Timothy, and automatic extrapolation to Christians in general shows a of lack of understanding.
2. God has called many, but chooses only a few.
3. 'SAVED' does NOT equate to eternal life in the Kingdom of God. Saved means saved from their sins, and given a new life and new oportunity. What is done with that opportunity is what makes all the difference. Some squander the chance given and fall back into a life of sin.

Salvation used in the general church sense as you are doing means very little if one does not pursue a life following the commandments of Christ.

Originally posted by @thinkofone

Focus jaywill, I've already explained why interpreting it your way doesn't hold water. In fact, I gave another reason in the post to which you've just responded - which you seem to have lost track of. You get lost so easily.

It is understood that when your errors are exposed you wish to deflect by having the examiner "focus" on something other then your errors.

The establishment of the Lord's supper is entirely focused on the upcoming death of Christ for the redemption of sinners.

No, sorry. Johnny-Come-Lately will not come along after 2,000 years of solid Christian understanding to give us the supposed real inside story.

Whatever else the problems of the Christian church, there is a correct understanding that Jesus intended the Lord's table / the Lord's supper to be intensely symbolic of His redemptive sacrifice for our sins on His cross.

Sorry. Neither Jesus, nor His apostles need to come and sit at YOUR feet to get a clearer insight into this one of few instituted symbolic ceremonies.

Originally posted by @sonship
Quote the post in which I used the phrase "demonic activity". You're so hung up on this, cut and paste the source quotation here.

Do you deny saying to Rajk999 something along the lines of how he was being used by demons to discourage Christians from calling on the name of the Lord Jesus with heart and mouth? And do you deny addressing Rajk999, where you itemized what you characterized as being his disagreements with you and then asserting that there seemed to be demonic activity to resist believers to call on the Lord Jesus, or words to that effect? [sorry everybody else for bumping this]

Originally posted by @sonship

Focus jaywill, I've already explained why interpreting it your way doesn't hold water. In fact, I gave another reason in the post to which you've just responded - which you seem to have lost track of. You get lost so easily.

It is understood that when your errors are exposed you wish to deflect by having the examiner "focus" on something ...[text shortened]... d sit at YOUR feet to get a clearer insight into this one of few instituted symbolic ceremonies.

Feel free to actually address the points of my post. Your ongoing refusal to do so in no way makes them less true.

Originally posted by @fmf
Do you deny saying to Rajk999 something along the lines of how he was being used by demons to discourage Christians from calling on the name of the Lord Jesus with heart and mouth? And do you deny addressing Rajk999, where you itemized what you characterized as being his disagreements with you and then asserting that there seemed to be demonic activity to resis ...[text shortened]... vers to call on the Lord Jesus, or words to that effect? [sorry everybody else for bumping this]

I think he may have evaporated.

Originally posted by @fmf
Do you deny saying to Rajk999 something along the lines of how he was being used by demons to discourage Christians from calling on the name of the Lord Jesus with heart and mouth? And do you deny addressing Rajk999, where you itemized what you characterized as being his disagreements with you and then asserting that there seemed to be demonic activity to resis ...[text shortened]... vers to call on the Lord Jesus, or words to that effect? [sorry everybody else for bumping this]

Im a demon [working for Satan/Devil] encouraging people to follow the commandments of Christ... lol 😀

Originally posted by @secondson
I question your understanding of what salvation means, and based on what you said above, how salvation is obtained.

So I ask you this; what part do you believe you play in the redemption of your soul? In other words, where were you when God, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,.." 2 Timothy 1:9

Oh hi, which other poster are you then?

Originally posted by @rajk999
Im a demon [working for Satan/Devil] encouraging people to follow the commandments of Christ... lol 😀

The following always comes to mind when jaywill says stuff like that:
Matthew 12
25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

Originally posted by @thinkofone
The following always comes to mind when jaywill says stuff like that:
Matthew 12
25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

Exactly.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
Feel free to actually address the points of my post. Your ongoing refusal to do so in no way makes them less true.

I feel quite free to make the most salient points which I think should be made. Yes, good conversation is important but the truth matters.