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04 Jun 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneDo you plan to answer any of the questions I and others have posed to you or shall we add them to the literally dozens of questions you refuse to answer because you lack the courage and integrity to not only stand up for what you believe but to even state what you believe?
Actually you've talked around the issue. If you don't want to directly address the issue, then just say so. That would be a lot better than falsely claiming that you have.
**Show how it is not presumptuous for anyone to think that they are in a position to judge themselves as being saved given that Jesus said that He will judge. Or admit that it is.**
Originally posted by @romans1009I did answer that - because Jesus judges the actions/behavior in one’s life, not whether the actions/behavior took place.
I did answer that - because Jesus judges the actions/behavior in one’s life, not whether the actions/behavior took place.
And I think the Bible is clear that Jesus’ judgment of believers takes place at the Judgment Seat of Christ while the judgment of unbelievers takes place at the Great White Throne Judgment.
No idea how this is relevant or even how it makes any sense. Who said anything about Jesus judging "whether the actions/behavior took place" or anything like it?
Jesus judges the actions/behavior in one’s life
Exactly. Jesus executes judgement on who will live and His criteria for judging is "those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment".
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04 Jun 18
Originally posted by @thinkofone<<No idea how this is relevant or even how it makes any sense. Who said anything about Jesus judging "whether the actions/behavior took place" or anything like it?>>
[b]I did answer that - because Jesus judges the actions/behavior in one’s life, not whether the actions/behavior took place.
No idea how this is relevant or even how it makes any sense. Who said anything about Jesus judging "whether the actions/behavior took place" or anything like it?
Jesus judges the actions/behavior in one’s life
...[text shortened]... ds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment".[/b]
If you had been paying attention, you would know that I (and countless others) believe in salvation by faith alone a la John 3:16 and Romans 10:9. Thus, Jesus would not judge the action of whether we believed in Him in our heart but whether that action/decision was a good one, which obviously it would be.
<<Exactly. Jesus executes judgement on who will live and His criteria for judging is "those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment".>>
And as I said earlier, actions and behavior spring from the heart and one who has believed in Christ in his or her heart manifests that belief in behavior and actions.
04 Jun 18
Originally posted by @romans1009If those actions do not result even if the person was sincere and believed the profession of faith was sincere, that person did not have the holy spirit and was not saved to begin with from your point of view.
<<No idea how this is relevant or even how it makes any sense. Who said anything about Jesus judging "whether the actions/behavior took place" or anything like it?>>
If you had been paying attention, you would know that I (and countless others) believe in salvation by faith alone a la John 3:16 and Romans 10:9. Thus, Jesus would not judge the action o ...[text shortened]... ne who has believed in Christ in his or her heart manifests that belief in behavior and actions.
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Originally posted by @eladarNo, that is incorrect. As long as we are in the flesh and in a sinful world, there will be a struggle between the Spirit and the flesh. Paul wrote about this extensively in Galatians.
If those actions do not result even if the person was sincere and believed the profession of faith was sincere, that person did not have the holy spirit and was not saved to begin with from your point of view.
We still retain our free will after the indwelling of God’s Holy Spirit.
Originally posted by @romans1009If you had been paying attention, you would know that I (and countless others) believe in salvation by faith alone a la John 3:16 and Romans 10:9. Thus, Jesus would not judge the action of whether we believed in Him in our heart but whether that action/decision was a good one, which obviously it would be.
<<No idea how this is relevant or even how it makes any sense. Who said anything about Jesus judging "whether the actions/behavior took place" or anything like it?>>
If you had been paying attention, you would know that I (and countless others) believe in salvation by faith alone a la John 3:16 and Romans 10:9. Thus, Jesus would not judge the action o ...[text shortened]... ne who has believed in Christ in his or her heart manifests that belief in behavior and actions.
I fully understood that you believe in "salvation by faith alone". That said, this still doesn't make any sense - it reads like a rambling non-sequitur. If anyone can offer a more articulate explanation of how Romans has shown how it is not presumptuous for anyone to think that they are in a position to judge themselves as being saved given that Jesus said that He will judge, please do so.
And as I said earlier, actions and behavior spring from the heart and one who has believed in Christ in his or her heart manifests that belief in behavior and actions.
Another non-sequitur. Anyone?
04 Jun 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Not exactly what Hebrews says about those who left the faith.
No, that is incorrect. As long as we are in the flesh and in a sinful world, there will be a struggle between the Spirit and the flesh. Paul wrote about this extensively in Galatians.
We still retain our free will after the indwelling of God’s Holy Spirit.
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05 Jun 18
Originally posted by @thinkofoneIt makes perfect sense. The fact you’re unable to understand it says quite a bit about yourself.
[b]If you had been paying attention, you would know that I (and countless others) believe in salvation by faith alone a la John 3:16 and Romans 10:9. Thus, Jesus would not judge the action of whether we believed in Him in our heart but whether that action/decision was a good one, which obviously it would be.
I fully understood that you believe in ...[text shortened]... or her heart manifests that belief in behavior and actions.[/b]
Another non-sequitur. Anyone?[/b]
And as usual, you’re not specific in your posts so there really is nothing to respond to.
05 Jun 18
Originally posted by @romans1009Hebrews 3
Well cite the verse(s)
See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
Why warn against something that you say can't happen. Not what I was going for but thought I'd post it and ask.
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Originally posted by @eladarYou think that passage says a believer can lose his or her salvation? Is the only time a believer should be warned about sinning in reference to salvation? How about avoiding the earthly consequences of committing sins? Look what happened to David - he committed adultery and essentially had a man killed so he could steal his wife and he paid consequences for those sins while he was still alive on the earth.
Hebrews 3
See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.
Why warn against something that you say can't happen. Not what I was going for but thought I'd post it and ask.
05 Jun 18
Hebrews 5
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Hebrews6
Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2 instruction about cleansing rites,[b] the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
So they were enlightened. They knew God but then turned away, at least according to the Bible.
05 Jun 18
Originally posted by @romans1009What was the warning for? Answer Hebrews 5 and 6
You think that passage says a believer can lose his or her salvation? Is the only time a believer should be warned about sinning in reference to salvation? How about avoiding the earthly consequences of committing sins? Look what happened to David - he committed adultery and essentially had a man killed so he could steal his wife and he paid consequences for those sins while he was still alive on the earth.
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05 Jun 18
Originally posted by @eladarThis is an interesting article on those verses. Rather than summarize it, I’ll just quote it in full:
Hebrews 5
We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acqua ...[text shortened]...
So they were enlightened. They knew God but then turned away, at least according to the Bible.
Question: "Does Hebrews 6:4-6 mean we can lose our salvation?"
Answer: Hebrews 6:4-6 states, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.” This is one of the Bible’s most difficult passages to interpret, but one thing is clear—it does not teach that we can lose our salvation. There are two valid ways of looking at these verses:
One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.
According to this interpretation, the phrase “once enlightened” (verse 4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but have not exercised genuine saving faith.
This interpretation also sees the phrase “tasted the heavenly gift” (Hebrews 6:9) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3-23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.
Finally, this interpretation sees the “falling away” (Hebrews 6:6) as a reference to those who have tasted the truth but, not having come all the way to faith, fall away from even the revelation they have been given. The tasting of truth is not enough to keep them from falling away from it. They must come all the way to Christ in complete repentance and faith; otherwise, they in effect re-crucify Christ and treat Him contemptuously. Those who sin against Christ in such a way have no hope of restoration or forgiveness because they reject Him with full knowledge and conscious experience. They have concluded that Jesus should have been crucified, and they stand with His enemies. It is impossible to renew such to repentance.
The other interpretation holds that this passage is written about Christians, and that the phrases “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” “enlightened,” and “tasted of the heavenly gift” are all descriptions of true believers.
According to this interpretation, the key word in the passage is if (verse 6). The writer of Hebrews is setting up a hypothetical statement: “IF a Christian were to fall away . . .” The point being made is that it would be impossible (IF a Christian falls away) to renew salvation. That’s because Christ died once for sin (Hebrews 9:28), and if His sacrifice is insufficient, then there’s no hope at all.
The passage, therefore, presents an argument based on a false premise (that a true Christian can fall away) and follows it to its senseless conclusion (that Jesus would have to be sacrificed again and again). The absurdity of the conclusion points up the impossibility of the original assumption. This reasoning is called reductio ad absurdum, in which a premise is disproved by showing that it logically leads to an absurdity.
Both of these interpretations support the security of the believer in Christ. The first interpretation presents unbelievers rejecting Christ and thereby losing their chance of salvation; the second interpretation presents the very idea of believers losing salvation as impossible. Many scriptures make it abundantly clear that salvation is eternal (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:35, 38-39; Philippians 1:6; 1 Peter 1:4-5), and Hebrews 6:4-6 confirms that doctrine.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Hebrews-6.html
Originally posted by @romans1009Well, you're one I had in mind when I spoke of those whose self-image does not line up with reality. Your conceptual and critical thinking skills are poor as are your reading comprehension and writing skills. That's why, more often than not, you can do little more than regurgitate the simplistic "Sunday School" level doctrine that you've been taught, cut-and-paste, etc. From what I can tell, you're oblivious to this fact.
It makes perfect sense. The fact you’re unable to understand it says quite a bit about yourself.
And as usual, you’re not specific in your posts so there really is nothing to respond to.
The fact remains that you haven't actually addressed the issue:
I know. And I'm saying that it seems presumptuous for any of them think that they are in a position to judge themselves as being saved.
Especially with Jesus saying that He will judge. Evidently you believe that individuals are able to judge themselves as well as Jesus is able.
Plus I've come across quite a few - both Christian and non-Christian alike - whose self-image does not line up with reality.
As shown in John 5, Jesus executes judgement on who will live and His criteria for judging is "those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment".
**Show how it is not presumptuous for anyone to think that they are in a position to judge themselves as being saved given that Jesus said that He will judge. Or admit that it is.**