The "Holy Spirit" is an illusion.
If you want to believe in it, you will, and you will think it is the greatest proof of Jesus alive. You will shake and speak in tongues and you will convince yourself how blessed you are to experience this exstacy.
Such is the power of the human brain to self-deceive.
The spirit is YOURS!
The joy is YOURS!
Stop persuading yourself it comes from outside of you.
IT DOESN'T.
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Originally posted by @pianoman1The "Holy Spirit" is an illusion.
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No, the Holy Spirit is not an illusion.
But Jesus did say that some of the world cannot know Him because they do not behold Him.
" ... the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you." (John 14:17)
Apparently Pianoman1 has no experience of "the Spirit of reality [truth]".
But Pianoman1 can enter into the experience.
If you want to believe in it, you will, and you will think it is the greatest proof of Jesus alive.
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Your generosity doesn't effect the matter one way or the other.
It is not only great evidence that Jesus is alive but great evidence that Jesus, as He promised, can come to LIVE in people.
"He who has My commandments and keeps them, he is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him." (John 14:21)
Through the Holy Spirit Jesus can manifest Himself to His lovers.
Through the Spirit of reality [truth] Jesus with His Father can come and make an organic and living abode with those who love Him.
"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
The man who will not open his heart and spiritual being to receive Jesus Christ will have no experience of the Holy Spirit. Such lack of experience will lead him to think the Holy Spirit is an illusion.
But he can have a change and enter into the experience that millions have had over the last twenty some centuries.
You will shake and speak in tongues and you will convince yourself how blessed you are to experience this exstacy.
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Excesses of one kind or another do not prove that there is no Holy Spirit.
Over excitement does not prove Christ's promise of the Holy Spirit is false.
Such examples are not a statement on the unreality of the Third of the Trinity - the Holy Spirit. They may be a statement on the over excitement or indulgence of religious people.
Because everything claimed to be of the Holy Spirit may not be is not evidence that there is no Holy Spirit.
Such is the power of the human brain to self-deceive.
The spirit is YOURS!
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Excesses like this are usually not the result of the human spirit but of the over exertion of the human soul.
See "The Latent Power of the Soul" or
Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 1) Vol. 10: The Present Testimony (3)
by Watchman Nee.
https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=2DCA1DF9D6
The activity of the latent soul power does not mean there is no Holy Spirit.
The joy is YOURS!
Stop persuading yourself it comes from outside of you.
IT DOESN'T.
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Of course the joy of the Holy Spirit is also the joy of the believer. Because when the Holy Spirit comes into a man it comes to blend, mingle in a union with her.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
The blending of the Spirit of Christ with the human spirit of course does not prove that there is no Holy Spirit.
A purely self generated happiness also does not prove that there is no Holy Spirit, which is Jesus Christ in His "pneumatic" form.
There is plenty of space given in the Bible to the problem of genuine faith verses human presumption. [Edited]
And instances of excessive human presumption do not prove the unreality of God.
Discernment is needed to be able to detect the difference.
Originally posted by @sonshipThank you for your detailed reply.
[b] The "Holy Spirit" is an illusion.
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No, the Holy Spirit is not an illusion.
But Jesus did say that some of the world cannot know Him because they do not behold Him.
[quote] " ... the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but ...[text shortened]... do not prove the unreality of God.
Discernment is needed to be able to detect the difference.
I speak as one who was the worship leader of a vineyard group for over two years after attending a couple of Alpha courses. I was so happy and fulfilled to experience God's love and feel his spirit alive in the world and to express it through the beauty of music.
I have now come full circle and have become a cynical agnostic.
I can only speak from experience, rather than quoting literature written by wandering desert people four thousand years ago.
The joy and love and power I thought was the "Holy Spirit" I now think come from within me. I am an intense ball of light and love, and every now and then a chink allows it to shine through!
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Originally posted by @pianoman1
Thank you for your detailed reply.
I speak as one who was the worship leader of a vineyard group for over two years after attending a couple of Alpha courses.
This is interesting but not conclusive of a completely trustworthy testimony about the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul had co-workers who turned away from the faith. Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:20) whom Paul says became "shipwrecked". Apparently they began to thrust away their conscience and went from being on the apostolic team to cynicism.
Paul was also abandoned by one Demas who decided that this passing world he loved more than serving Christ on the apostolic team (2 timothy 4:9) .
The New Testament gives us plenty of "heads-up" that some disciples will unexpectantly drop off or drop out or otherwise be defeated by some besetting sin. Today being an X-Evangelical or an X-Reverend is in vogue. We are not devastated by professing disciples who turn away from the faith.
We shed two tears and keep on following the Lord.
I mean we have to have some tears. But there will always be some who turn away.
I remember what Paul told the Ephesian elders, predicting that even among them some would arise speaking perverse things one day.
" I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock, and from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverted things to draw away the disciples after them.
Therefore watch, remembering that for three years, night and day, I did not cease admonishing each one with tears." (Acts 20:29,30)
We've been given ample warning. For one reason or another some professed disciples will become shipwrecked and even troublesome to the Christians who wish to overcome to the end.
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23 Sep 17
3 edits
I was so happy and fulfilled to experience God's love and feel his spirit alive in the world and to express it through the beauty of music.
Yes, the Vineyard did put out some neat music.
I use to have one of their tapes.
Not too raunchy and I could sense the love of Christ in the worship songs.
I've been a Christian musician myself for years. I feel sorry that things turned sour for you.
But I've been through many spiritual ups and downs.
Sometimes you just have to pinpoint where the problem is, deal with it in the grace of God, and get up and keep going for the kingdom.
I have now come full circle and have become a cynical agnostic.
But Jesus is always radiant and expecting the best and the victorious flowing out of His Spirit. When I get cynical I eventually just take Christ as everything I need that I am not.
Ie.
"Lord Jesus, I want to be so cyncical. But Lord Jesus what discouragement I face here is nothing compared to all that You encountered. Lord Jesus, You be what I am not. Be everything I need for me, Lord, and from within Me. "
In this way I can say with Paul that I know nothing can ever separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
" But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us.
For I am persuaded that neither death nor life nor angels nor principalities nor things present nor things to come nor powers nor height nor death nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Rom. 8:37-39)
I expect discouragements in my Christian journey. I don't expect anything imaginable will be able to separate me from the love of God in Christ flowing into my heart.
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I can only speak from experience, rather than quoting literature written by wandering desert people four thousand years ago.
I like to quote the living book because it never gets old and is as relevant in 2017 AD as at any other time in history. I don't share your cynicism there. I have found that the living God stands behind the living book of God.
The joy and love and power I thought was the "Holy Spirit" I now think come from within me. I am an intense ball of light and love, and every now and then a chink allows it to shine through!
Oh, over the last 40 some years I could also look back and deem that some moments were not as much of the Holy Spirit as I first thought. That is not too unusual.
But if music is something to you, I put Scripture to song.
Check some out if you feel to.
My last album is at the bottom Weapons of Righteousness - mostly songs from Romans.
https://soundcloud.com/jack-wilmore
Originally posted by @pianoman1Full circle, things didn't go your way in life now you are pissed off?
Thank you for your detailed reply.
I speak as one who was the worship leader of a vineyard group for over two years after attending a couple of Alpha courses. I was so happy and fulfilled to experience God's love and feel his spirit alive in the world and to express it through the beauty of music.
I have now come full circle and have become a cynical ag ...[text shortened]... am an intense ball of light and love, and every now and then a chink allows it to shine through!
People or God betray you, in your opinion?
Originally posted by @kellyjayHi Kellyjay,
Full circle, things didn't go your way in life now you are pissed off?
People or God betray you, in your opinion?
There is no anger in me at all, and I'm certainly not pissed off. Au contraire, I am more fulfilled and complete as a person now that I recognise the beauty within me and not the rather vague notion of a God outside of me. My music is not inspired by the Holy Spirit; no, I'll rephrase that - it is inspired by the Holy Spirit, but dos not come from him
God did not betray me, rather it was me who abandoned God.
23 Sep 17
Originally posted by @pianoman1Okay, well at least you are honest about that part.
Hi Kellyjay,
There is no anger in me at all, and I'm certainly not pissed off. Au contraire, I am more fulfilled and complete as a person now that I recognise the beauty within me and not the rather vague notion of a God outside of me. My music is not inspired by the Holy Spirit; no, I'll rephrase that - it is inspired by the Holy Spirit, but dos not come from him
God did not betray me, rather it was me who abandoned God.
Originally posted by @pianoman1How do you know you actually had the Holy Spirit in the first place? You could have been duped by wolves in sheep's clothing.
Hi Kellyjay,
There is no anger in me at all, and I'm certainly not pissed off. Au contraire, I am more fulfilled and complete as a person now that I recognise the beauty within me and not the rather vague notion of a God outside of me. My music is not inspired by the Holy Spirit; no, I'll rephrase that - it is inspired by the Holy Spirit, but dos not come from him
God did not betray me, rather it was me who abandoned God.
23 Sep 17
Originally posted by @avalanchethecatNo, people who have the holy spirit are sheep.
So for you the holy spirit looks like a sheep?
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23 Sep 17
1 edit
Originally posted by @sonshiptypo:
I was so happy and fulfilled to experience God's love and feel his spirit alive in the world and to express it through the beauty of music.
Yes, the Vineyard did put out some neat music.
I use to have one of their tapes.
Not too raunchy and I could sense the love of Christ in the worship songs.
I've been a Christian musician m ...[text shortened]... ginable will be able to separate me from the love of God in Christ flowing into my heart.
should have been -
" ... nor powers nor height nor depth [edited] nor any other creature ..."
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23 Sep 17
Originally posted by @rbhillThe Holy Spirit is the form in which what Christ has attained and obtained can be made available and effective subjectively in His believers.
Please describe the Holy Spirit in one sentence. Thanks.