The Ox Goad god

Originally posted by frogstomp
Listen, I haven't the time to waste explaining this to you ad-infinitum but Abram came thousands of years after the story of the flood was written and was born in a city where that part of the mythology was kept in a slightly different version it's only natural that the originator of the religion would modify what he thought was history into h ...[text shortened]... gives a reason to why the semetic mercenaries from Ebla and Cannan would be in Sumer.

Do we even know that Abraham existed? Where else but the Bible is there mention of Abraham? Perhaps we believe he existed because the story of Abraham in the Bible is historically accurate enough to be believable. The times and places of Abraham mentioned in the Bible mesh with history. If you believe Abraham existed, you then have to give some validity to the Bible in regards to historical accuracy in order to accept that Abraham even existed. The question then becomes, how much validity? Certainly not enough validity to think that the Bible was inspired by God and that he served the only true God and not the gods of the Sumerians. You assume that the flood and creation accounts are myths even though all ancient cultures point to it in some way. The assumption is that the Sumerians simply created these myths to suit their own concept of God and then the author of the Bible and subsequent cultures modified these myths to suite their own version of God. This is still an assumption, however. This assumption is based on the fact that they came first and were the off shoots of civilization. The other assumption is that God does not exist. I guess these assumptions would seem logical if you assume he does not exist. After all, all religion would then simply be a myth of man's concept of God if he did not exist. The only problem with this logic, however, is that if God does exist, this logic can be thrown out the window.

It must be painful for you to know that the God spoken of in the Bible is not only associated with ancient history, he has also survived the earliest "myths" told by other ancient civilizations. After all, the Bible is the only text that refers to Abraham and Abraham is very well known today. Where is the god of Enli, Ziusudra, or Marduk? You may know them if you study ancient archeology but otherwise they are dead. Abraham's God, however, has conquered the modern world. We see this in terms of the major religions of the world which are Islam, Judism, and Christianity which all point to the God of Abraham as being the true God. If there is a God, then this be him. If this be him, the Bible is inspired by God. If the Bible is inspired by God, your theories about the Bible being man's modifications of myths told by other men hold no water.

Originally posted by whodey
Do we even know that Abraham existed? Where else but the Bible is there mention of Abraham? Perhaps we believe he existed because the story of Abraham in the Bible is historically accurate enough to be believable. The times and places of Abraham mentioned in the Bible mesh with history. If you believe Abraham existed, you then have to give some validity t ...[text shortened]... heories about the Bible being man's modifications of myths told by other men hold no water.

Im not arguing against the bible being a source of historical information , as to people, places and some events, however it's the murderous behavior that the earliest Israelites ascribe to their god of love. So I looked at the history and found your god just an invisible copy of other EARLIER false gods who at least had the temerity to have their images instantiated in statues , so that when their loving followers were murdered by followers of a different, equally false god, their images would go to hell along with them.

Originally posted by frogstomp
Im not arguing against the bible being a source of historical information , as to people, places and some events, however it's the murderous behavior that the earliest Israelites ascribe to their god of love. So I looked at the history and found your god just an invisible copy of other EARLIER false gods who at least had the temerity to have their i ...[text shortened]... followers of a different, equally false god, their images would go to hell along with them.

Well I am glad that you agree that the Bible is a good source of historical information. Your only beef with the Bible then seems to stem from the conquest of the Holy Land by the Israelites, no? This issue has been brought up time and time again on these threads. Typically it is the only arsenal people have in attacking the Bible. I have to admit, when I first became a Christian, the conquests bothered me as well. You must realize some facts, however, in order to get the full picture.

The first order of business is realizing the difference between old and new covenant theology. The old covenant and Old Testament is representative of God's wrath and disdain for sin. Judgement regarding sin was immediate and so was the consequences for that sin. It stands as a sobering reminder of how a holy God cannot tolerate the corrosive effects of sin which ultimatly brings death. The thought of death is abhorrent to a God of life. The eye for an eye concept, albeit harsh, was an attempt to quarantine certain types of sins in the attempt to keep them from spreading. It is kind of like quarantining someone with the plague. They may die faster as a result of the isolation, however, more lives will be saved as a result of their quarantine. To sum up, if God chooses not judge sin and wrong doing justly, then he would then be culpable and be unjust. It is not something he enjoys, it is something he must do.

The second order of business is realizing how evil these people were that the Israelites drove out of the Holy Land. They sacrificed their children to idols. They were indeed the worst of the worst. This is but one of the few things we do know about them. They seemed like a delightful bunch. What other types of sin they were into one can only imagine. God naturally did not want their corruption spreading to his own people and as a result, forbade them from intermarriage with them and eradicated them from the land they would inherit. Despite having some success with these tactics, the Israelites still succumbed to idol worship and such to some degree. Without these tactics the Israelite nation would never have come into being and would have been assimilated into the world as if never having existed.

Thirdly, God told them to conquer the land because he promised it to Abrahams descendants. After all, Abraham was God's servant and the land was his to give. He wished to bless his servant and his descendants with the land. Once they had conquered the land, they stopped future conquest. They were not expansionists, they were merely taking what God had ordained them to take. Do you think the rebellious inhabitants would leave the land they occupied? Their land lord merely evicted them.

Lastly, God's ultimate plan was to establish a nation unto himself in order to bring the Messiah into the world who would make it possible to defeat sin once and for all. Through Christ, God issued in a better covenant of grace that we have today. The New covenant represents God's love and longsuffering that he has for us despite our sin, as did the Old covenant represented God's judgement and justice over sin. Through Christ, no longer does sin have to be dealt with immediately and harshly, nor do we have to pay for our sins. Now we have the option of choosing Christ to wash away our sins and as a result, wash away its corrosive effects in our lives and in the lives of those around us and receive mercy. The real battle was to give the Messiah to the world. Now that this has been accomplished, no more bloodshed is necessary as in the days of old. The battle now is to show the world God's love through Christ so that he does not have to judge them and issue out justice for their wrong doing.

Originally posted by whodey
Well I am glad that you agree that the Bible is a good source of historical information. Your only beef with the Bible then seems to stem from the conquest of the Holy Land by the Israelites, no? This issue has been brought up time and time again on these threads. Typically it is the only arsenal people have in attacking the Bible. I have to admit, when I Christ so that he does not have to judge them and issue out justice for their wrong doing.

You believe a bunch of bull. There is so much historical inaccuracy in this post it makes my head spin. There is so much in here that is internally inconsistent it is staggering. There is so much illogical and irrational claptrap that it is amazing. You are simply parroting what others have told you.

Your belief system is, in short, insane.

EDIT: "Their land lord merely evicted them"??? LMFAO! Try evicting your tenants by slaying them to the last man, woman and child. You're nuts.

Originally posted by whodey
Well I am glad that you agree that the Bible is a good source of historical information. Your only beef with the Bible then seems to stem from the conquest of the Holy Land by the Israelites, no? This issue has been brought up time and time again on these threads. Typically it is the only arsenal people have in attacking the Bible. I have to admit, when I ...[text shortened]... Christ so that he does not have to judge them and issue out justice for their wrong doing.

1:the eye for an eye concept , came directly from Hammurbi's code so does that mean that you worship Marduk?
2: except the nice prostitute that betrayed the citizens of Jericho?
3: Their lord had a duty and a care to at least TELL THEM TO LEAVE HIMSELF.
last: If god suffered so much over sin , why the hell did he order genocide?

Originally posted by frogstomp
1:the eye for an eye concept , came directly from Hammurbi's code so does that mean that you worship Marduk?
2: except the nice prostitute that betrayed the citizens of Jericho?
3: Their lord had a duty and a care to at least TELL THEM TO LEAVE HIMSELF.
last: If god suffered so much over sin , why the hell did he order genocide?

1. We can go round and round about who came up with the eye for an eye concept. If all people came from the same place as the Bible indicates, it would seem that they would have similiar ideas such as the eye for an eye concept, no?

2. The prositute was spared in Jericho and all of her family because she placed her faith in God's plan. Faith is what makes right in the Bible. Now if she had continued to practice the oldest profession after becoming assimilated into the Israeli nation, that would be a different story.

3. As far as the last bit of your post, I would say that we could speculate all day as to better avenues that God could have or should have done things differently. The bottom line is that he knows and sees all and, as a result, is the best judge of what is best. You also do not consider that our very lives were given to us by God. In fact, all that we have is given to us by God such as the land we live in and the people we interact with. He does with it as to how he wills. If we want to continue to live for eternity, simply place your faith in God's plan for life. You wrote that God should have explained their situation and should have TOLD THEM TO LEAVE HIMSELF and perhaps he tried. All I know is that he is explaining our situation now in this current period of grace.

Originally posted by whodey
1. We can go round and round about who came up with the eye for an eye concept. If all people came from the same place as the Bible indicates, it would seem that they would have similiar ideas such as the eye for an eye concept, no?

2. The prositute was spared in Jericho and all of her family because she placed her faith in God's plan. Faith is what make tried. All I know is that he is explaining our situation now in this current period of grace.

1 except it was writter first into law by Hammurabi.
2. this only shows she was afraid of them nothing more:
Joshua 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.
2:10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water of the Red sea for you, when ye came out of Egypt; and what ye did unto the two kings of the Amorites, that were on the other side Jordan, Sihon and Og, whom ye utterly destroyed.
2:11 And as soon as we had heard these things, our hearts did melt,
neither did there remain any more courage in any man, because of you: for the LORD your God, he is God in heaven above, and in earth
beneath.
2:12 Now therefore, I pray you, swear unto me by the LORD, since I
have shewed you kindness, that ye will also shew kindness unto my
father's house, and give me a true token: 2:13 And that ye will save
alive my father, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sisters, and
all that they have, and deliver our lives from death.

3: we ain't going round and round: you are losing, and here's why : The people of Jericho were all of god's creation and yet meant nothing at all to your monster OT god except a traitorous whore that betrayed her own people because she was AFRAID of being killed herself. maybe you think that's the actions of a LOVING God , but I'll tell you something if that's an example of God's love, he can hate me , or better still forget, about me.

As I have said the OT father god doesn't come close to being anything like you idiotic christians think he' like.And there's a reason for that and here it is: He ain't God.

Originally posted by frogstomp
1 except it was writter first into law by Hammurabi.
2. this only shows she was afraid of them nothing more:
Joshua 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.
2:10 For we have heard how the LORD dried up the water tians think he' like.And there's a reason for that and here it is: He ain't God.

1. Correction: It was the first record of such laws that were found. You assume that others did not come before that might have not been written down, or recovered.
2. I am glad that you have aceepted the accounts of the Old Testament. I am equally glad that you are reading your Bible. Looks like we are making progress, no? I like the last line in the scripture that you provided which is, And that ye will save alive my father, and my mother, and my brethren, and my sister, and all that they have, and deliver our lives from death." Just think, if every one prayed this no one would ever need die. Why people think they can ignore the God of life and escape death is beyond me.
3. So I am losing am I? I did not know it was a contest. You say that the people of Jericho did not mean anything to God. What you don't say is that God did not seem to mean anything to the people of Jericho. By saying that God is a monster you assume once again the people of Jericho were not the ones who were monsters. You also say that the old testament God is nothing like the new testament God? Have you ever read the back of the book after the period of grace has ended and God judges his creation? Let's just say it ain't pretty for those who reject the God of life. It actually makes the old testament God look like a boy scout.

Originally posted by whodey
1. Correction: It was the first record of such laws that were found. You assume that others did not come before that might have not been written down, or recovered.
2. I am glad that you have aceepted the accounts of the Old Testament. I am equally glad that you are reading your Bible. Looks like we are making progress, no? I like the last line in the ...[text shortened]... who reject the God of life. It actually makes the old testament God look like a boy scout.

1) it was written down because it was the Akkadian Law
2) no, we're not making progress because you think reading that garbage will convert me to your way of thinking, and I assure you it has the opposite effect, since I have a higher bar for god to meet than you ever will have if you keep thinking the OT is god's word or even true.
3) get this into your head, the only monster from Jericho I can see is the Harlot, although the israelite's had quite a few, including that phoney god and Joshua, the leader of the worst gang of murderers until the Nazi's came along.
And if that any example of how your god acts , then your god can stick his creation where the sun don't shine.

Originally posted by frogstomp
, then your god can stick his creation where the sun don't shine.[/b]

Well, if that's the way you want it. That just seems like a strange request to me.

All I can say is that if you see a large group of nomadic people circleing your house for days on end and then hear a large shout, run!!!!

Originally posted by whodey
All I can say is that if you see a large group of nomadic people circleing your house for days on end and then hear a large shout, run!!!!

I'm safe, I don't even know any harlots.

Originally posted by frogstomp
I'm safe, I don't even know any harlots.

Above harlots are you? It seems they are good to have around if you can get them on your side.

Originally posted by whodey
Above harlots are you? It seems they are good to have around if you can get them on your side.

So go out and find a harlot to protect you from your fancified nomadic hoard or try and get a grip on yourself and realize that the god you speak of had nothing at all to do with Joshua.

Originally posted by frogstomp
So go out and find a harlot to protect you from your fancified nomadic hoard or try and get a grip on yourself and realize that the god you speak of had nothing at all to do with Joshua.

So God had nothing to do with Joshua or the founding of the Israelite nation? I hate to break it to ya, but they are still here. Show me any other culture and religion that has survived the tests of time as have the Jewish nation that everyone seems to hate. Your saying God has nothing to do with that?

Originally posted by whodey
they were merely taking what God had ordained them to take. Do you think the rebellious inhabitants would leave the land they occupied? Their land lord merely evicted them.

Lastly, God's ultimate plan was to establish a nation unto himself in order to bring the Messiah into the world who would make it possible to defeat sin once and for all. Through C ...[text shortened]... h Christ so that he does not have to judge them and issue out justice for their wrong doing.

If Jesus wouldn't do it.... then HIS god wouldnt either!
He came to show us what we couldnt understand!

gil