The Person of Christ
The Person of Christ defies human understanding and appreciation without the benefit of a human spirit. In a status of spiritual death, we were/are as blind as Paul shuffling along that dusty path to Big D (no, not Dallas but Damascus) in his sweaty sandals. This popular scholar of his day was temporarily blinded by the mere glimpse of a unique man (the Ascended and Seated Person of Christ in Hypostatic Union Forever).
The Members of the Trinity are described in the Word of God as Beings Characterized by Transcendent Light. Little wonder the Son took on flesh to walk from a poor excuse for a public animal stable to his public execution; the sum total of any other options, zero in real terms. The hundreds of men and women engaged in conversations within this internet forum may, as well, be crowded together with binoculars at one end of a playing field attempting to see who lit the bonfire at its home end, someone with omnipresence. Someone both here and incalculable light years away.
It's no fun being on the outside, still uncertain as to the precise location of the window or door leading in. Understandably, intellectual knuckles are bruised and emotions jaded raw. First steps are to stop fighting a supposed enemy; tear down the frontal lobe barricades; and climb out of a sewerage carpeted fox hole that's become home sweet home. Next, ponder the possibility of self delusion and open your mind.
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Originally posted by kiki46And yet fitting*. Yes, there I said it. Unapologetic pride in sin is not acceptable to God. Repent now while there is still time. They say "There are no atheists in foxholes." Don't wait until that moment. Beat the rush.
Well said. It is sad that the arrogance of the unbeliever will only be rewarded with eternal fire.
*Although I would change the words 'eternal fire' in your post to 'the second death', which is the effect of the eternal fire on our otherwise eternal souls.
Originally posted by SuzianneDo not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
And yet fitting*. Yes, there I said it. Unapologetic pride in sin is not acceptable to God. Repent now while there is still time. They say "There are no atheists in foxholes." Don't wait until that moment. Beat the rush.
*Although I would change the words 'eternal fire' in your post to 'the second death', which is the effect of the eternal fire on our otherwise eternal souls.
Matthew 10:28 (NASB)
Will He or not?
Originally posted by RJHindsThis scripture is a main reason I have the belief of a soul death for unrepentant sinners after Judgment, rather than an eternity of torture, which many Christians seem to take glee in.
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 (NASB)
Will He or not?
Will He or not, what?
Jesus is speaking of truths and promises to us that these things are true. I tend to believe Him.
Originally posted by Suzianne" repent " = a change of mind which sounds simple yet very difficult for those who have been in a continuous state of rejection where scar tissue has accumulated.
And yet fitting*. Yes, there I said it. Unapologetic pride in sin is not acceptable to God. Repent now while there is still time. They say "There are no atheists in foxholes." Don't wait until that moment. Beat the rush.
*Although I would change the words 'eternal fire' in your post to 'the second death', which is the effect of the eternal fire on our otherwise eternal souls.
* There is a literal fire for the resurrected body of all unbelievers for all eternity.
There are two sides to every story.
Indeed some might say there are three.
Your version, the other version and then the truth.
The truth is that the four of you above me here cannot
absolutely prove beyond all reasonable doubt that there
is a God.
While history may recount certain people and events like
Jesus and Moses and the Roman Empire and all that.
It does not prove that there is any higher power other than
the political system that existed at the time. There is no one
not anybody on this planet that can prove that there is a God
and or that this Jesus was his son and that he had any magical
powers. History only records that these humans existed and it
also records what happened.
History is fallible. Stories can change down through the ages
and sometimes history can be changed to suit some people.
How many times have people had to change their minds
because something new was discovered to offset the previous
opinion that they held before?
All I am asking is that you keep looking for proper factual
evidence and stop trying to tell people about magical
fairy stories that you cannot prove took place.
The teachings of Jesus are sound. I wish everyone would
follow them and maybe then we would have a better world.
But is there a God? And was Jesus his son?
No one can prove that. Religion is a crutch for humanity
to lean on because humanity is not strong enough to sort
out the problems of the world that he or she should have
sorted out thousands of years ago.
Originally posted by kiki46Of course there is. But this eternal fire results in "the second death", the death of the soul, for the unbeliever. Eternal torture seems a bit "over the top" for a loving God. I know many Christians like the idea, but it's not exactly something to be giggling over, nor to be wished for, for anyone, even those unworthy of God. Watching one's loved ones on earth undergo this torture and knowing it will last for eternity would be an unnecessary anguish for those who can look forward to eternal life with the Almighty God. I wouldn't exactly call that anguish a reward for "enduring to the end".
* There is a literal fire for the resurrected body of all unbelievers for all eternity.
"Eternal" fire means the fire is eternal, unquenchable, not the torture. Sinners do not need to be subject to eternal torture. Soul death, and the eternal separation from God, is quite punishment enough. Funny how we abhor torture in all its forms on earth, but somehow relish the unrepentant sinner being barbequed for all eternity.
Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyGlad to see you are still questioning. There is still hope. Yes there is a God and yes Jesus is His Son who died as a substitute for us. It is easy to reject but eternally easier to accept by faith. John 3:16 Check it out you will be eternally grateful to HIM.
There are two sides to every story.
Indeed some might say there are three.
Your version, the other version and then the truth.
The truth is that the four of you above me here cannot
absolutely prove beyond all reasonable doubt that there
is a God.
While history may recount certain people and events like
Jesus and Moses and the Roman Emp ...[text shortened]... rt
out the problems of the world that he or she should have
sorted out thousands of years ago.
Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyThe truth is that the four of you above me here cannot
There are two sides to every story.
Indeed some might say there are three.
Your version, the other version and then the truth.
The truth is that the four of you above me here cannot
absolutely prove beyond all reasonable doubt that there
is a God.
While history may recount certain people and events like
Jesus and Moses and the Roman Emp ...[text shortened]... rt
out the problems of the world that he or she should have
sorted out thousands of years ago.
absolutely prove beyond all reasonable doubt that there
is a God.
No, of course not.
While history may recount certain people and events like
Jesus and Moses and the Roman Empire and all that.
It does not prove that there is any higher power other than
the political system that existed at the time. There is no one
not anybody on this planet that can prove that there is a God
and or that this Jesus was his son and that he had any magical
powers. History only records that these humans existed and it
also records what happened.
Correct, there cannot ever be ironclad proof that there is a God, or that His son came to earth manifested as a human in order to give His life for the salvation of mankind. No one can prove this is true. All correct so far.
History is fallible. Stories can change down through the ages
and sometimes history can be changed to suit some people.
How many times have people had to change their minds
because something new was discovered to offset the previous
opinion that they held before?
History is not fallible. It is what it is. But, yes, man's twist on what is presented as history can and does change. "The victor writes the history." This is often true. There are still greater lessons we can take away from almost every moment in history. We still need to be watchful against repeating history because we fail to learn the greater lessons.
All I am asking is that you keep looking for proper factual
evidence and stop trying to tell people about magical
fairy stories that you cannot prove took place.
Many atheists here take this same stance. Some have even called Christians "dangerous" because of their faith. Factual evidence is great. But its place is to back up one's faith, not be the reason for faith.
From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith
"Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing, or a deity or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion. It may also be belief that is not based on proof.
In religion, faith often involves accepting claims about the character of a deity, nature, or the universe. While some have argued that faith is opposed to reason, proponents of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence. For example, faith can be applied to predictions of the future, which (by definition) has not yet occurred.
The word faith is often used as a substitute for hope, trust or belief."
The etymology of the word Faith comes from the concept of trust. Believers have trust that their God is true and real. Christians have trust in their God that His word, the Bible, is true. Trust is not given through evidence. It comes from belief. To believers, it is not a matter of "magical fairy stories". It is a matter of trust, of faith, of belief, that their God IS real. By definition, this comes without evidence, without proof. What IS magical is that we, as humans, have been given the ability to have faith, to see truth beyond proof.
I've maintained in this very forum that proof of God is impossible. In Christianity (I'm sorry but I am not qualified to speak of other religions), faith is paramount. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16, KJV) Belief. It is ALL about the belief. That is all that is necessary to begin our walk with God. In order for our belief to save us, belief MUST be the product of a free will. We cannot be coerced into it. We cannot just SAY we believe if belief is not in our heart. It must be the result of a decision to follow God and to accept what He promises is true. We must believe, and we cannot be rewarded for our faith if God just hands us proof of His existence on a silver platter. Proof destroys faith. Because if we have proof, then it is not belief, but fact. One cannot argue against a fact. But to have free will, we must also be free to choose against faith. We must be able to choose not to believe. In this way, while there is punishment for unbelief, it is our choice to refuse to believe. And if we have proof of God as a fact, then how could anyone choose not to believe a fact? We can't, therefore proof of God is impossible. If the requirement to advance to heaven is faith, then we cannot be exposed to any actual facts which prove (or disprove) God. End of story.
The teachings of Jesus are sound. I wish everyone would
follow them and maybe then we would have a better world.
Amen, my friend. Amen. This is what Christianity is about, regardless of how many evil men try to get in the way with distractions from this central tenet. I include popes and church leaders among those evil men, if they promote evil. This does not take away from our mission to follow the Christ.
But is there a God? And was Jesus his son?
Those who believe say Yes, and we strive to spread the Good News, the Gospel, in order to expose as many as possible to the true inheritance of man, the promise of salvation offered within. Free will still applies, and they are welcome to make their choice. But we are tasked to bring as many to God as would come.
No one can prove that. Religion is a crutch for humanity
to lean on because humanity is not strong enough to sort
out the problems of the world that he or she should have
sorted out thousands of years ago.
No, no one can prove that. That is the beauty and the genius of it. And I agree that "humanity is not strong enough to sort out the problems of the world that he or she should have sorted out thousands of years ago." That is why we need God and Jesus. The real reward of Christianity is not in this world, but the next. This world is a creation of man, it cannot be perfect. But the Kingdom of God holds that promise out to us.
I do not agree that "Religion is a crutch for humanity to lean on". Religion is the hope for mankind. To slip the bonds of evil and experience perfect love, perfect justice. Too many times, this world does not reward the poor in spirit, those who mourn, the meek, those who hunger after righteousness, the merciful, the pure in heart, the peacemakers, those who are reviled and persecuted for Jesus' sake. But Jesus tells us that great will be our reward in heaven, that we are the salt of the earth, that we are the light of the world. This is our armor for surviving a world which reviles us.
Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyWhile that is true, it has absolutely zero bearing on whether or not what we have faith in is true.
The truth is that the four of you above me here cannot
absolutely prove beyond all reasonable doubt that there
is a God.
The truth is, you can't prove that you aren't just an internet bot--a software program--spewing anti-Christian rhetoric in message forums. Does that mean we should therefore place zero value on everything you say?
If you place your belief ONLY in things that can be absolutely and empirically proven, then you should rightfully believe nothing--other than the fact that you exist. Nothing else can be proven. Nothing. Grow a pair, and take a chance. Try believing in something that can't be absolutely proven. See where that takes you. Only a coward would sit in his foxhole and not believe anything unless another person makes the exhaustive effort to prove it to him beyond doubt.
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Jesus Christ is the Red Thread of Scripture...
Genesis, – He is the promised seed of the woman
Exodus – He is the High Priest
Numbers – he is the star to rise out of Jacob
Deuteronomy – he is the two laws – love God and love your neighbor
Joshua – he is the captain of the lord of hosts
Judges – he is the covenant angel named wonderful
Ruth – he is the kinsman redeemer
Samuel – he is the greater than the Temple
Chronicles – he is the king’s son
Ezra and Nehemiah – he is the rebuilder
Ester – he is the savior of God’s people
Job – he is the daysman
Psalms – he is the song
Proverbs – he is the wisdom of God
Ecclesiastes – he is the one among a thousand
Song of Solomon – he is the bridegroom of the bride
Isaiah – he is Jacob’s branch
Jeremiah – he is our righteousness
Lamentations – he is the unbelievers’ judgment
Ezekiel he is the true shepherd
Daniel – he is the stone that became the head of the corner
Hosea – he is the latter rain
Joel – he is God’s dwelling in Zion
Amos – he is the raiser of David’s tabernacle
Obadiah – he is the deliverer on Mount Zion
Jonah – he is our salvation
Micah – he is the lord of kings
Nahum – he is the stronghold in the time of trouble
Habakkuk – he is our joy and confidence
Zephaniah – he is our mighty lord
Haggai – he is the desire of the nations
Zechariah – he is our servant – the branch
Malachi – he is the son of righteousness
Matthew – he is Jehovah’s Messiah
Mark – he is Jehovah’s servant
Luke – he is Jehovah’s man
John – he is Jehovah’s Son
Acts – he is the gift of the Holy Spirit
Romans – he is the believer’s justification
Corinthians – he is the believer’s sanctification
Galatians – he is the believer’s righteousness
Ephesians – he is the believer’s heavenly standing
Philippians – he is the believer’s supply
Colossians – he is the believer’s completeness
Thessalonians – he is the believer’s soon glorification
Timothy – he is the faithful men
Titus – he is the fellow laborer
Philemon – is is the love of a believer
Hebrews – he is the high priest for sin
James – he is the royal law
Peter – he is the pastor
John – he is as we are
Jude – he is the beloved
Revelation – he is the King of kings and Lord of Lords.
Originally posted by checkbaiter"John – he is Jehovah’s Son
Jesus Christ is the Red Thread of Scripture...
Genesis, – He is the promised seed of the woman
Exodus – He is the High Priest
Numbers – he is the star to rise out of Jacob
Deuteronomy – he is the two laws – love God and love your neighbor
Joshua – he is the captain of the lord of hosts
Judges – he is the covenant angel named wonderful
Ruth – he is ...[text shortened]... – he is as we are
Jude – he is the beloved
Revelation – he is the King of kings and Lord of Lords.
Acts – he is the gift of the Holy Spirit"
Jehovah and Son and Holy Spirit:
Sounds somewhat like a family.
Originally posted by Suzianne"Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die."
Of course there is. But this eternal fire results in "the second death", the death of the soul, for the unbeliever. Eternal torture seems a bit "over the top" for a loving God. I know many Christians like the idea, but it's not exactly something to be giggling over, nor to be wished for, for anyone, even those unworthy of God. Watching one's loved ones ...[text shortened]... on earth, but somehow relish the unrepentant sinner being barbequed for all eternity.
(1 Corinthians 15:36)
"Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."
(John 12:24)
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
(Matthew 10:28)
The word translated hell is literally Gehenna.
A.W. Pink writes the following about the above verse:
As used in Scripture the words "destroy," "destruction," "perish" etc. never signify cessation of existence. In Matthew 10:7 one of the principal Greek words for "destroyed" is rendered "the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Those Israelites had not ceased to be, but were away from God! In Mark 2:22 the same word is translated "marred" in connection with "bottles" of skins which the new wine burst. So, too, the word "perish" never signifies annihilation in Scripture. In 2 Peter 3:6 we read, "The world" that then was, being overflowed with water, perished." The "world" that perished, whether the reference be to the pre-Adamic earth or the world destroyed by the Flood, was not reduced to nothing. When, then, Scripture speaks of the wicked as perishing and as being destroyed, it is in order to expose the error of those who assert that they have a gospel for those who die unsaved, That the wicked have "perished" excludes all hope of their subsequent salvation. 1 Timothy 5:6 tells us there is a living-death even now—"She that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth"—so will there be in eternity.
The absurdity and unscripturalness of Annihilationism are easily exposed. If at death the sinner passes out of existence, why resurrect him in order to annihilate him again? Scripture speaks of the "punishment" and "torment" of the wicked; but any one can see that annihilation is not these! If annihilation were all that awaits the wicked, they would never know that they had received their just deserts and the "due reward" of their iniquities! Scripture speaks of degrees of punishment for the lost; but annihilation would make this impossible; annihilation would level all distinctions and ignore all degrees of guilt. In Isaiah 33:14 we are told,
"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"
So far from sinners being annihilated they shall dwell with the devouring fire! Scripture speaks again and again of the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" of those who are cast into hell, and this, at once, gives the lie to those who affirm extinction of being.
"It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."
(Hebrews 9:2 7)
"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished."
(2 Peter 2:9)
"All that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
(John 5:29)
Again A.W. Pink writes the following:
Gehenna is identical with the Lake of Fire. First, the fact that in Gehenna God "destroys" both soul and body (Matthew 10:28). This shows the wicked who are there destroyed have already received their resurrection bodies.
Second, the fact that the fire of Gehenna is eternal: it will "never be quenched" (Mark 9:43).
This is nowhere said of the fires of sheol or hades. Finally, notice the absence of "Gehenna" in Revelation 20:14, "And death and hades were cast into the lake of fire." The meaning of this is the people whom death and hades had seized —"death" capturing the body; "hades" claiming the soul. That the casting of "death and hades" into the Lake of Fire refer to their captives is clear from the concluding words of the verse —"This is the second death," i.e. for their victims. Note then that we are not told that "Gehenna" was cast into the Lake of Fire because Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are one and the same place.
You can read more detailed information from A.W. Pink at the following link:
http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/index.html?mainframe=/eschaton/pink_eternal_punishment.html