08 Oct 06
Originally posted by dj2beckerStop asking irrelevant questions. Haven't you following the discussion?
Do you mean to equate your own existence with that of a monkey?
To spell it out for you: I am aware of the truth that I have kidneys; monkeys aren't. This is due to a difference in intellect. Hence, this is an example of how a level of intellect is a precondition for grasping particular truths about myself. Now, if intellect is a precondition for grasping such truths, why not others of greater metaphysical importance? Why should (alleged) truths about God be easily accessible to rudimentary intellects?
08 Oct 06
Originally posted by jaywillSo, are you saying that, if one adopts a genuinely penitant attitude, and assumes particular metaphysical postulates (e.g., that one asks forgiveness of a man that died 2000 years ago, but still lives, and is essentially the same as God), one can arrive at an experiential knowledge of God than cannot otherwise be obtained?
There are many things about God I understand better than I did before. But what is very important is that the obstacle lying between a person and the experience of God must be identified and dealt with. There is a barrier of frustration preventing God from being real to people.
That barrier is their sins. The real record of real sins with real guilt cau ...[text shortened]... f Jesus which was shed for our cleansing.
These words are trustworthy and reliable.
If so, what content does this experiential knowledge have? For example, does its content include the knowledge that homosexuality is iniquitous?
08 Oct 06
Originally posted by Pawnokeyholedj's debate style is based entirely on willful, sloppy misquotes and misrepresentation of the opponent's position, combined with lengthy C&P screeds. It's been hilarious in this thread watching everyone take their turn attempting to reason with him.
Stop asking irrelevant questions. Haven't you following the discussion?
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08 Oct 06
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeWas Jaywill not speaking within the context of human intelligence?
Stop asking irrelevant questions. Haven't you following the discussion?
To spell it out for you: I am aware of the truth that I have kidneys; monkeys aren't. This is due to a difference in intellect. Hence, this is an example of how a level of intellect is a precondition for grasping particular truths about myself. Now, if intellect is a precondition ...[text shortened]... ortance? Why should (alleged) truths about God be easily accessible to rudimentary intellects?
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08 Oct 06
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemdj's debate style is based entirely on willful, sloppy misquotes and misrepresentation of the opponent's position, combined with lengthy C&P screeds.
dj's debate style is based entirely on willful, sloppy misquotes and misrepresentation of the opponent's position, combined with lengthy C&P screeds. It's been hilarious in this thread watching everyone take their turn attempting to reason with him.
Such as?
08 Oct 06
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillSo basically (using the analogy of Sartre), you think we are all paper cutters, but no one is quite as proficient as Jesus at cutting paper for God.
I don't believe that my belief in the God Who is there and Who does exist, is degrading to my humnity.
I think without exception the highest humanity that has ever walked this earth is the humanity of Jesus Christ. He was not just good. He was glorious. His impact on human history has been glorious.
My repentence brings me into transformation to b the gospel is glorious living.
What could you possibly offer me that is superior to this?
08 Oct 06
1 edit
Originally posted by PawnokeyholeIt is not believing that any man died 2000 years ago but still lives.
So, are you saying that, if one adopts a genuinely penitant attitude, and assumes particular metaphysical postulates (e.g., that one asks forgiveness of a man that died 2000 years ago, but still lives, and is essentially the same as God), one can arrive at an experiential knowledge of God than cannot otherwise be obtained?
If so, what content does th ...[text shortened]... edge have? For example, does its content include the knowledge that homosexuality is iniquitous?
It is believing that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Salvation is not in mentally giving assent to a set of doctrines in an objective way. Salvation is in receiving Jesus Christ the Lord.
It is not the thorough knowledge of your sins which saves you. It is Jesus Christ Who saves you.
It is not the sincerity of your confession that saves you. It is Jesus Christ Who saves you.
You come to Him for saving and He will do the saving work. There is no need to split hairs on what you need to do. You either come to Jesus Christ to be saved or you do not.
Don't waste time trying to find logical fallacies with God's way. Just take the word of God and open yourself to Christ:
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation.
For the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him shall not be put to shame.
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him;
For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:9-13)
Don't waste time testing your cleverness, trying to find logical fallacies with God's gracious offer.
If you want to be saved you call on the living Lord Jesus. If you don't want to be saved then you believe that He is dead and gone and that there is no use to call on the Lord Jesus.
That is all.
08 Oct 06
1 edit
Originally posted by StarrmanDo you know for an undisputable fact as sure as 1+1=2 that the offer of salvation through Jesus Christ is a FLAWED?
How can it possibly be a waste of time? If you were me, would you go to Jesus, if you knew 'God's gracious offer' was flawed?
Do you have the assurance that that is without a doubt the reality?
Instead of trying to believe, try your hardest not to believe. Are you SURE that Jesus is not right?
08 Oct 06
DJ.
Having read all of this post I still eagerly await your answer regarding the FSM. You state that an atheist needs to prove the non existence of God (and that you do not need to prove it) and then a few posts later you demand that proof is provided for the existence of the FSM by the FSM believer.
This is a contradiction in your argument that you have yet to clear up.
Can you do so?
08 Oct 06
Originally posted by Rolfeydon't hold your breath.
DJ.
Having read all of this post I still eagerly await your answer regarding the FSM. You state that an atheist needs to prove the non existence of God (and that you do not need to prove it) and then a few posts later you demand that proof is provided for the existence of the FSM by the FSM believer.
This is a contradiction in your argument that you have yet to clear up.
Can you do so?
09 Oct 06
Originally posted by jaywillYou say all I have to do is offer up these words in an "honest" manner. Maybe you could explain how that is even possible. Isn't it the case (for a rational agent) that belief in God is necessary for "honestly" addressing God? I'm just concerned that an agent who is acting both rationally and honestly cannot render a prayer that essentially goes "Dear God, I believe you do not exist...."
"God, I just don't have any faith. I expect to be disappointed. I don't really believe that you are there to hear me. Help my unbelief."
Maybe you could clarify what you mean by "honest".
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09 Oct 06
Originally posted by RolfeyYou state that an atheist needs to prove the non existence of God...
DJ.
Having read all of this post I still eagerly await your answer regarding the FSM. You state that an atheist needs to prove the non existence of God (and that you do not need to prove it) and then a few posts later you demand that proof is provided for the existence of the FSM by the FSM believer.
This is a contradiction in your argument that you have yet to clear up.
Can you do so?
Where did I say that?
I said it is impossible to prove the non-existence of God, or anything for that matter, without having absolute knowledge.
I used the example of gold in China. In order to prove that there is no gold in China you need to have absolute knowledge about every square inch in China. However, if you are going to say that there is gold in China all you need to do is have knowledge about one single piece of gold in China.
09 Oct 06
Originally posted by LemonJelloBy honest I am drawing on the many examples in the Bible of people pouring out there hearts in frank and transparent conversations with God.
You say all I have to do is offer up these words in an "honest" manner. Maybe you could explain how that is even possible. Isn't it the case (for a rational agent) that belief in God is necessary for "honestly" addressing God? I'm just concerned that an agent who is acting both rationally and honestly cannot render a prayer that essentially goes "Dear ...[text shortened]... I believe you do not exist...."
Maybe you could clarify what you mean by "honest".
In case you did not notice there are quite a few doubters recorded in the Bible. You could not say that all the prayers and conversations of people towards God in the Bible display overwhelming confidence that they are being heard.
So by honest, I mean that is okay to be gut honest in your conversation seeking fellowship with God.
Now I suppose that your line of reasoning is "But what if I don't believe that God is a reality in the first place? "
Afterall the Bible itself says " ... for he who comes forward to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6b)
The Bible seems here to argue with you. If you would come forward to God you must believe that God is.
I don't know your heart. Perhaps you really don't know your own heart. How do you really know that you don't have even an atom of belief that God is? Perhaps deep within your being there is some amount of belief.
Faith always has some element of doubt behind it. There is always a little voice of possiblity "But maybe it isn't true. Maybe there is no God to hear me." Or at least there is often a little doubt "Maybe God doesn't listen to me even if God is."
That is why I said to try your hardest to not believe in God. Insist and set your will that you will not believe that God is. Are you sure that you have no doubt that perhaps God IS there afterall.
I don't think I necessarily have more faith than anyone else. But I know where to have my faith strengthened. When I read the words of the Bible, particularly the words of Jesus Christ, it seems that faith is spontaneously produced in small measures in my being. I say "This Person is believable. This does not have the taste of unreality. It may be unusual. But it has the flavor of realism and trustworthiness."
Then one might ask oneself - "If it is not true what do I have to lose to try God out. Suppose I say God if you are there, if you are real show yourself to me. If you do not I will assume that God is not a reality."
You may ask what harm can such a test cause? But no one can know for sure if you really mean business or whether you are just going through the motions to demonstrate something to the theist for debate's sake.
I have seen too many doubters touch the realness of God. Do not think that all Christians were brought up in Sunday School all their lives and naturally believe.
I guess my bottom line here is - how do you know for certain that you are totally deviod of any belief in God? I don't think you know your own heart that well.
Other parts of your being are involved beside your intellect. There is your will. What do you really want? Do you really want to be left alone? That is not a matter of belief. That is a matter of will and decision.
What do you really like? That is a matter of another component of your person - your emotion. Do you like to have a relationship with God? Do you love something more than a relationship with God? That is not a matter of belief. That is a matter that something else is more dear and precious to you than God.
Then there is something else beside intellect that is involved. Not only your will of decision. Not only your emotion of love or hate. There is also your conscience. I talked about the confession of oneself as a sinner. Perhaps your conscience just is hard and you are self justified - "I am not a sinner. I am a good person. I am not as bad as this other person over here. So I am not in need of forgiveness."
This is a matter of the conscience. It takes some time in life for a man's conscience to catch up with him. My conscience eventually caught up with me.
The mind is involved in coming to God. The will is involved too. The emotion is involved. And the conscience is involved. It is not only in there realm of the intellect. These other factors are important also.
This is why the Bible says that we are to love the Lord God with all our mind and all our heart and all our soul and all our strength. Our whole being is involved. Now none of us love God in this total way. But there is one Savior who loved the Father in this way for us. That is Jesus.
Compared to Him we all come up short. So we are told to come to the Lord and Savrior Jesus acknowledging that we have come up short. He will save us from the guilt of this shortness and the power of this shortness.