09 Oct 06
1 edit
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemGood for you! You can spot an argument used but not invented probably by Josh McDowell.
Josh McDowell's False Trichotomy makes yet another appearance.
Notice no answer is given just a "I can point out something said by someone else before."
So what do you think?
09 Oct 06
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillIt is not believing that any man died 2000 years ago but still lives.
It is believing that Jesus Christ is Lord.
Your first statement is false. Christianity does involve believing that a man, in particular Jesus, died 2000 years ago, but is still alive. Salvation may also involve the latter, but it at least involves the former.
Salvation is not in mentally giving assent to a set of doctrines in an objective way. Salvation is in receiving Jesus Christ the Lord.
I think this is captured by my earlier assertion referring to an "attitude change".
It is not the thorough knowledge of your sins which saves you. It is Jesus Christ Who saves you.
Okay.
It is not the sincerity of your confession that saves you. It is Jesus Christ Who saves you.
Okay. Although it seems that sincereity of confession is a necessary condition for salvation, even if it isn't a sufficient one.
You come to Him for saving and He will do the saving work. There is no need to split hairs on what you need to do.
If Jesus, who died 2000 year ago, were not a living spiritual person, then would salvation--genuine moral transformation, becoming good--be possible?
You either come to Jesus Christ to be saved or you do not.
Don't waste time trying to find logical fallacies with God's way. Just take the word of God and open yourself to Christ:
"That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Aha! According to the Bible, the metaphysical belief in Jesus not dead, in particular that God saved him from death, IS a necessary condition for salvation
For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation.
For the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him shall not be put to shame.
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him;
For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:9-13)
Nice egalitarian sentiments. But how do I go about calling on a person in whom I do not believe?
Don't waste time testing your cleverness, trying to find logical fallacies with God's gracious offer.
I am not testing my cleverness. I am earnestly trying to unpack the nature of the claims you are making.
If you want to be saved you call on the living Lord Jesus. If you don't want to be saved then you believe that He is dead and gone and that there is no use to call on the Lord Jesus.
That is all.
Is it possible to want to be saved without believing in Jesus?
09 Oct 06
Originally posted by jaywillI have met Muslims who are as convinced as you that Islam is the one true faith as you are that Christianity is.
You'll have to talk to Allah take me home to someone who has claimed that experience.
As for me I have pressed Moslems if they know God. Eventually the answer is that they do not really know God.
So don't just assume stuff. Bring to me a Moslem who said she knows Allah and we then have a basis of comparison.
Here is a hard question: how do you know that the person you encounter in your spiritual experience is Jesus of Nazareth and not somebody else?
09 Oct 06
Originally posted by jaywillDo you really think that those are the only two options?
Look at the sentence immediatly above your question.
Couldn't He just be wrong?
Couldn't He be absolutely correct, but not mean what you insist it means (as I have
pointed out repeatedly, Jesus never considered Himself as God, nor do any of the
Christian Scriptures, and especially St Paul seems to make clear that Jesus was not
God).
Nemesio
09 Oct 06
Originally posted by jaywillEgads, that's a lot of verbage!
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[b]Right -- that was my impression. So you would agree with me that the prayer you offered earlier (the one I referenced in my previous post) is poorly conceived?
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Perhaps. But someday you may in fact decide to pray. Don't promise yourself that you will never. You don't know t ...[text shortened]... the Holy Spirit.
5.) In....[/b]
09 Oct 06
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Originally posted by LemonJelloYou're right. I do tend to be verbose.
Egads, that's a lot of verbage!
Some of this is writing in anticipation of further questions or comments that I think are about to come.
Look at this post itself. I could have just stopped at the first sentence. But I add some explanation so as not to have to write three posts to do so.
Understand now why (rightly or wrongly) I tend to be verbose?
From the skeptic's point of view, the more I write the more he or she has to lay hold of and find fault with.
09 Oct 06
1 edit
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Do you really think that those are the only two options?
Couldn't He just be wrong?
Couldn't He be absolutely correct, but not mean what you insist it means (as I have
pointed out repeatedly, Jesus never considered Himself as God, nor do any of the
Christian Scriptures, and especially St Paul seems to make clear that Jesus was not
God).
----------------------------------------
Smokest thou some powerful weed?
Of course He taught that He was God come as a man. And of course Paul's epistles repeat the same thing.
09 Oct 06
Originally posted by jaywillEven with all that verbage, I really didn't see much that I think merits response. Your whole pitch for Jesus just seems comparable to placing a big "DRINK ME" tag on a bottle of irrationality.
You're right. I do tend to be verbose.
Some of this is writing in anticipation of further questions or comments that I think are about to come.
Look at this post itself. I could have just stopped at the first sentence. But I add some explanation so as not to have to write three posts to do so.
Understand now why (rightly or wrongly) I tend to ...[text shortened]... c's point of view, the more I write the more he or she has to lay hold of and find fault with.
09 Oct 06
4 edits
Nemesio,
You ask a valid question. Where did Jesus teach that He was God? First before I show you you have to realize something very important. By teaching that He was God He is NOT teaching that He is NOT also a man.
Given that understanding that He taught that He is God/Man we can go on to show His claims of being God as a Man.
I submit Matthew 23:37-39
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! Behold, your house is left to you desolate. For I say to you, You shall by no means see Me from now on until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."
Jesus tells the city of Jerusalem that He often longed to gather them under His wing as a hen gathers her brood.
It was always GOD HIMSELF who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young (Isaiah 31:5; Deutoronomy 32:11-12). Therefore for Jesus to say "I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings" indicates that He was God Himself.
Jesus therefore was the Old Testament God, Who as a bird caring for her brood in the prophets, longed to care for Jerusalem while she was busy stoning the prophets in the Old Testament.
Christ teaches therefore that He is God become a man. Would you like other references?
09 Oct 06
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Originally posted by jaywillAre you suggesting that, because Jesus was comparing Himself to God,
Nemesio,
You ask a valid question. Where did Jesus teach that He was God? First before I show you you have to realize something very important. By teaching that He was God He is NOT teaching that He is NOT also a man.
Given that understanding that He taught that He is God/Man we can go on to show His claims of being God as a Man.
I submit...[te ...[text shortened]... ed]...
Christ teaches therefore that He is God become a man. Would you like other references?
that He was saying He was God?
Why wouldn't a more logical conclusion be that, using God as His model,
He was acting on God's behalf in a God-like fashion? Indeed, this is
what Jesus calls His followers to do: be Christ to one another.
If you are being Christ to your brother, are you asserting you are God?
No, of course not. Neither should we conclude that Jesus was asserting
that He was God simply because He was doing (what He thought was)
God's work.
Nemesio
Edit: I had a teacher that said he was taking his students under his
wing. Was he saying that he was God? Of course not.
09 Oct 06
Originally posted by NemesioAnother place where Jesus teaches that He is God is submitted. Remember though. For Jesus to teach that He is God does not mean that He is teaching He is not a man also.
Where did Jesus teach that He was God come as man?
Where does St Paul say that Jesus was God?
Nemesio
He teaches that He is God become a man. And we see this quite explicitly in John's gospel.
"And He said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, You will see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man" (John 1:51)
This was a reference to Genesis 28:11-22. Christ as the Son of Man is the fulfillment of Jacob's dream. Jacob called that place "Bethel" which means the house of God. He dreamed of the angels of God ascending and descending upon a ladder set up on the earth joining earth to heaven.
This house of God - Bethel, Jesus teaches, is "the Son of Man" He is the dwelling place of God on the earth. He, the Son of Man, is the reality of God's house, God's temple, the dwelling place of God on the earth. He is also the joining of the earth to the heaven and heaven to earth.
In the next chapter He tells the experts in the law of Moses that if they destroy the temple of God He will raise it up in three days. He spoke of the temple of His body. This is a continuation of His teaching that He, the Son of Man, is the temple of His Father. He is the human temple in which God lives on the earth.
If they kill Him He will resurrect in three days. If they destroy the house of God - Bethel - He will raise it up in three days.
Jesus therefore teaches that He is the Old Testament God incarnated as a man.
We will go on to Paul's repetition of this revelation latter. I am called away right now.