Originally posted by jaywillThere is a big difference between logic such as mathematics where a set of definitions and axioms lead conclusively to the results of Theorems (such as 1+1=2) and knowledge about the physical world (reality). There are no definitions or axioms in the physical world and although observation shows that cirtain rules appear to be followed, the only possible way to determine that this is so is observation and deduction based on this observation. There is never any absolute rules and exceptions to apparent laws are always possible.
Do you know for an undisputable fact as sure as 1+1=2 that the offer of salvation through Jesus Christ is a FLAWED?
Do you have the assurance that that is without a doubt the reality?
Instead of trying to believe, try your hardest not to believe. Are you SURE that Jesus is not right?
Observation and deductive reasoning leads me to understand the basic phenomena we call gravity. However that does not mean that I fully understand it and in fact no human being fully understands it.
I am equally as sure that gravity exists and that its basic properties can be relied upon (it helps me walk) as I am that 'the offer of salvation through Jesus Christ is a FLAWED'.
Originally posted by twhiteheadI am assured that gravity holds me down so that I can walk.
There is a big difference between logic such as mathematics where a set of definitions and axioms lead conclusively to the results of Theorems (such as 1+1=2) and knowledge about the physical world (reality). There are no definitions or axioms in the physical world and although observation shows that cirtain rules appear to be followed, the only possible ...[text shortened]... pon (it helps me walk) as I am that 'the offer of salvation through Jesus Christ is a FLAWED'.
Some of my walking has led to some unseemly things. Some places my feet have led to have not been good for me and have been harmful to other people.
So beside the physical walking I am very concerned about the "walking" of how I live. Now you may be certain that gravity helps you to walk. And I completely agree. But consider in some of the ways in which you have walked.
If you think that you will never have to answer to God concerning where your feet, helped by gravity, sometimes led you, then you can rest peacefully. But it is a gamble.
For my part I believe that there was an actual record of actual guilt because of actual transgressions commited by me. When the Bible informs me that a day of judgement cannot be avoided I believe that. It seems the answer to those wrongs done to me. And seems the answer also conversly for those wrongs done BY me to others.
If there was no man such as Jesus Christ to walk so righty and to speak so authoritatively of these things, then I might be as you. But because I cannot ignore the life and words of Christ I am convinced that there is no flaw in Him or in His teaching.
Then the day in which I received this Person into me led me to understand that I must be on the right track. He became in a form in which He could be dispensed into man's innermost kernel of his being - "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
So I am thankful for God's creation and for gravity. But I am more thankful for that real walking that God impowers me to walk through union with Christ. I feel that Christ is the real gravity holding me down.
Christ is to me the real force around which we as created humans must revolve. The sun and its gravity speak to me of the reality of Christ. The sun in its light speak to me of the light of life which is Christ. The creation hints to me of the deeper realities of God as the great "I AM" of life.
So I am assured that Christ is not flawed. I think a deceived person is a person who thinks that Jesus Christ is flawed. I honestly think that if you think Christ is flawed then you must be a deceived person. That religious crowd that cried out "Crucify Him. Crucify Him" they also thought that He was flawed. They were deceived people.
Originally posted by jaywillIf you would come forward to God you must believe that God is.
By honest I am drawing on the many examples in the Bible of people pouring out there hearts in frank and transparent conversations with God.
In case you did not notice there are quite a few doubters recorded in the Bible. You could not say that all the prayers and conversations of people towards God in the Bible display overwhelming confidence that they ave us from the guilt of this shortness and the power of this shortness.
Right -- that was my impression. So you would agree with me that the prayer you offered earlier (the one I referenced in my previous post) is poorly conceived?
How do you really know that you don't have even an atom of belief that God is? Perhaps deep within your being there is some amount of belief.
What exactly do you think belief is? Belief doesn't work that way.
What I think you mean is that there may exist some doubt in my mind concerning my stance. And yes I would agree with that -- in the sense that I am a fallibilist, and the evidence on which I base my stance is defeasible. But that's hardly saying much: there also exists a similar sort of 'doubt' relative to the claim that I possess hands.
But, for argument, let's say that I think it is very likely (but not certain) that your concept of God fails to be instantiated. Is this bit of 'doubt' sufficient for allowing me to "come forward to God" in an honest manner? If the first bolded statement above is true, then the answer is no.
Originally posted by jaywillThis is what irritates me about you god-botherers; few of you read what you post yourselves before rebutting the posts of others. Allow me to go over it with you:
Do you know for an undisputable fact as sure as 1+1=2 that the offer of salvation through Jesus Christ is a FLAWED?
Do you have the assurance that that is without a doubt the reality?
Instead of trying to believe, try your hardest not to believe. Are you SURE that Jesus is not right?
You: Don't waste time testing your cleverness, trying to find logical fallacies with God's gracious offer.
Me: How can it possibly be a waste of time? If you were me, would you go to Jesus, if you knew 'God's gracious offer' was flawed?
You: Do you know for an undisputable fact as sure as 1+1=2 that the offer of salvation through Jesus Christ is a FLAWED?
Me: That's exactly why we should test it out.
You suggest that trying to find a problem with god is pointless, I reply that it can't be pointless to look as we don't know, you ask if I'm sure there is a flaw, I suggest that's why we should look. If you suggest I should suspend all my questioning and accept god without information, query or doubt, you are suggesting I abandon what makes me human, my free will, my desire to understand, my need to investigate and my self preservation. And yet you can give me no reason why I should do this, other than that god requires it.
I am as sure Jesus is not right as I can be about any aposteriori judgement given the weight of evidence. I don't try to believe and I don't try and disbelieve, I merely look at the evidence and judge it as best I can.
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Right -- that was my impression. So you would agree with me that the prayer you offered earlier (the one I referenced in my previous post) is poorly conceived?
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Perhaps. But someday you may in fact decide to pray. Don't promise yourself that you will never. You don't know that you will never reach out to God.
Perhaps today you are certain that you would never lift a finger to have fellowship with God. I accept that. And perhaps you will go to your grave with such a decision. But life has many changes and turns. One day long after you forget this debate you may want to talk to God.
I was trying to give you a little help in an effective way to do that. If you want me to apologize for giving you poor help, I have no feeling that I need to apologize of backtrack. At best I can say that the time is not right.
What makes people like me so persistent is my own experience. I know what it is to not believe in the resurrected Christ and frankly to not want to know anything about Christ or God. I remember the false sense of "freedom" from "religion." How exilarating! And to actually argue and challenge the very existence of God? How exilarating.
Then the time came when the love of Christ for me meant something to me. By comparison I prefer the latter experience.
I am not begging you to believe as I do.
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What exactly do you think belief is? Belief doesn't work that way.
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Belief in the the living Jesus Christ is rather mysterious to me. Sometimes I can hardly believe that I do believe. I think faith in Christ is of a different kind of sort than, say, belief that there is another planet beyond pluto.
I have to honestly say that the whole realm of faith in Christ inspired by the words of the Bible is kind of unique. There are a number of things about it that, frankly, I don't understand too well. They are hard to explain.
The moment it occured to me that God was a Person, it was like a laser light zapped me in my innermost being. I could have said "Where did that come from?"
The former athiest C.S. Lewis use to say that to talk about him searching for God was like talking about a mouse searching for a cat.
The intellectual C.S. Lewis writes of his own experience in the his book "Surprised By Joy". I think he was an Oxford Philosophy professor and avowed atheist. He was not looking for Christ. But he was surprised by the joy of finding Christ and being found by Christ.
What I think you mean is that there may exist some doubt in my mind concerning my stance. And yes I would agree with that -- in the sense that I am a fallibilist, and the evidence on which I base my stance is defeasible. But that's hardly saying much: there also exists a similar sort of 'doubt' relative to the claim that I possess hands.
Stepping into the experience of Christ the Lord is a little like stepping off of a cliff. You have heard that there is a hand that will be beneath you and keep you from falling to the ground below. But you're just not completely sure. Suppose you step out and there is no one to catch you?
So when you pray the sort of prayer that I suggested, it is a little like stepping off of a ledge. But God is faithful, is faithful, is faithful. The experience of Christ is one part man's faith. But it the other part the faithfulNESS of God.
If you are not impressed with the faithfulness of God you should examine His faithfulness in the pages of the entire Bible.
If after reading you are still not at all impressed with the faithfulness of God, what can I do?
Do you want to win the argument? Do you want to prevail in the debate? Is that what you want? Okay, "The WINNER and STILL champion, the bulwark of agnosticism, our own LemmonJello!!
Hip Hip Hooray!!"
Some of us sat down one day and asked ourselves - "Now do I want to win the debate or do I want God?"
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But, for argument, let's say that I think it is very likely (but not certain) that your concept of God fails to be instantiated. Is this bit of 'doubt' sufficient for allowing me to "come forward to God" in an honest manner? If the first bolded statement above is true, then the answer is no.
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You really don't know one way or the other unless you give prayer to God in the name of Jesus a chance.
I think to you I suggested the confession that you are a sinner in need of God's salvation. I think I may have mentioned to you thanking God for His provision in Christ.
I am confident that this is an effective way to substantiate the reality of the Holy Spirit and that Jesus Christ will in fact make Himself known to you.
Don't you think that the gospel writer John purposely included portions of conversations between the disciples and Jesus which highlighted these concerns?
For example:
"Judas, not Iscariot, said to Him, Lord, and what has happened that You are to manifest Yourself to us and not to the world?
Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him.
He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me" (John 14:22-24)
Can you read about Jesus and not grow to love Him? I think it is strange if Jesus Christ does not inspire love for Him to rise up in your heart. And love leads to faith. And love leads to keeping His word in your heart. And He promised that He and His Father will come to such a lover and make a abode with such a lover.
The original question from Judas (not Iscariot) is how will Jesus manifest Himself to the disciples while the world is not aware of Him.
Again the faithful evangelist John records these words for our help:
"He who has My commandments and jeeps them, he is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will manifest Myself to him" (John 14:21)
His promise is that He will manifest Himself to those who love Him. His promise is the He and His Father will come to the one who loves Him and will make a dwelling place, an abode with the one who loves Him.
"I will love Him and will manifest Myself to him"
Again John records Jesus speaking of His resurrection and His manifestation of Himself to the believers:
"Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live.
In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (JOhn 14:19,20)
The world does not behold Jesus Christ. But the lovers come to the realization that He lives. He will make an abode within them as the Holy Spirit. And in that day they come to realize that He is in the Father and they are in Him and He is in them. Man and God become united in mutual indwelling.
So the Apostle Paul writes - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
Before the sinner's spirit was separated from the Holy Spirit which is now Christ Jesus in a receivable form. Then by faith and God's faithfulness she is "joined to the Lord" and the human spirit and the divine Spirit become "one spirit"
Since the two spirits become "one spirit" the Apostle can also now write - "The Lord be with your spirit".
That means that the Lord Jesus Christ in His form as the Holy Spirit is with you - with your spirit.
So Paul writes the there is an inner witness in the deepest part of the believer's being that she has become born of God:
"The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God" (Romans 8:16)
The Lord is with the spirit of the believer. The Spirit bears witness with the believer's spirit that God is now his dear Father. And in that day the believer realizes that Christ is in the Father and the he is in Christ and that Christ is in him. There is a mingling. There is a union. There is a mutual indwelling and a inner bearing witness that the words of the New Testament discribing a reality.
Then He and His Father have come to make an abode with His lover just as He promised. I have experienced this. It has changed my life. Many have experienced this.
So Paul writes to his audience that they must remember that Jesus Christ is in them:
"Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved?' (2 Cor. 13:5)
These words were penned over 2,000 years ago. They are reliable even until today. Jesus Christ can enter into you. The Lord can be with your spirit and your spirit and the Spirit of the Lord can be united to be "one spirit"
Would you want this? Would you want your innermost being to be joined to the Lord Jesus Christ to be "one spirit" with Christ the Lord? I would assure you that it is wonderful to be joined to the Lord Christ.
This is a new birth. This is nothing less than a new spiritual birth deep within. "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)
To review what I have said above here:
1.) When Jesus comes to save you He is joined to your innermost being - your human spirit.
2.) He bears witness with your spirit that you are a life child of His Father. God is not the Daddy to whom we may cry "Abba Father."
3.) The Lord is with your spirit.
4.) The comatose and deadened human spirit becomes born from above. That is born of the Holy Spirit.
5.) In....
Originally posted by StarrmanI understand your irritation.
This is what irritates me about you god-botherers; few of you read what you post yourselves before rebutting the posts of others. Allow me to go over it with you:
[b]You: Don't waste time testing your cleverness, trying to find logical fallacies with God's gracious offer.
Me: How can it possibly be a waste of time? If you were me, would y ...[text shortened]... don't try and disbelieve, I merely look at the evidence and judge it as best I can.[/b]
Some here argue objectively and some argue about subjective experience. And some like me do a little of both.
Are you talking about the evidence that there is no God?
Are you talking about the evidence that Christ did not live and did not say what the New Testament claims He said?
I admit that I lose track of who I am speaking with. I also admit that sometimes I do not carefully read posts. I admit these weaknesses in my discourse with you. So I have something more to learn. No problem.
I think that the evidence for the existence of God is in the creation. I also think that if anyone on this earth could claim to speak authoritatively about God it is Jesus. I think He is in a class occupied by one person, Himself.
This is the objective side. Now I move from this to the experiencial side. I don't think the whole question of God's existence is for the satisfying of man's curiosity.
I understand that you find it irritating that I would not stop with just some objective argument for God's existence. My experience is the God is for tasting. God is a realm to live in. God is a sphere to live in.
I notice that there are some other posters here who will debate the objective side of this matter a lot more than I.
Here's the deal. The answer to the questions about God is to touch God within. And that can happen. You can touch God. You can taste God. You can substantiate God through Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by jaywillOkay, my apologies for the tone of my last post.
I understand your irritation.
Some here argue objectively and some argue about subjective experience. And some like me do a little of both.
Are you talking about the evidence that there is no God?
Are you talking about the evidence that Christ did not live and did not say what the New Testament claims He said?
I admit that I lose track ...[text shortened]... appen. You can touch God. You can taste God. You can substantiate God through Jesus Christ.
Nevertheless the nature of being able to question is too important to me to relinquish on the basis of faith alone.
Originally posted by StarrmanI had a friend who was a strong agnostic. He said "This is the thing that bothers me about Christianity. You have to believe to have faith and you have to have faith in order to believe."
Okay, my apologies for the tone of my last post.
Nevertheless the nature of being able to question is too important to me to relinquish on the basis of faith alone.
I went home and thought about it and said to myself - "Okay. that's right."
So I have to have faith in order to believe and I have to believe in order to have faith. Okay.
But please forgive me if I personally choose not to stay with that little logical delimma for the rest of my life. You do what you have to do.
But me, I don't want to spend the rest of my life musing on this little logical paradox "Let me see. Here I am stuck. I have to have faith in order to believe and I have to believe in order to have faith."
For some reason I chose not to remain paralyzed in this state. Somehow I guess God had mercy on me and I decided I wanted God.
The day I called out "Jesus take me home. I am tired." That is the day God became REAL to me.
Originally posted by jaywillPerhaps someday you will realise that God doesnt exist. Who knows?
...... Perhaps. But someday you may in fact decide to pray. Don't promise yourself that you will never. You don't know that you will never reach out to God. (...text shortened...)
When will Christians realise that when they are trying to explain something to athiests or non-christians, then they are wasting thier time trying to say everything in a way that can only be understood by Christians. Statements like "God exists because the Bible says so" are just nonsensical.
Also constantly quoting the Bible (then quickly providing an interpretation) does not somehow make nonchristians think your words or arguements are somehow more valid but rather tend to make us more sceptical of your ability to think for yourself.
You constantly expect people to pray to something they do not think exists.
Originally posted by twhiteheadTwhitehead,
Perhaps someday you will realise that God doesnt exist. Who knows?
When will Christians realise that when they are trying to explain something to athiests or non-christians, then they are wasting thier time trying to say everything in a way that can only be understood by Christians. Statements like "God exists because the Bible says so" are just nonsen ...[text shortened]... ink for yourself.
You constantly expect people to pray to something they do not think exists.
The faith is not dying out. It is growing and spreading all the time. We see people turning from not knowing Christ to knowing Christ. People like you and I.
You say there is no God. Eventually it comes down to you have to trust someone. I trust Jesus Christ. He spoke authoritatively on the matter of His Father.
I think either He was a mad man or a liar or is what He says He is. He has the kind of approvedness and quality about Him that calls for my trust.
I am more convinced by His deeds, His words, His apostles sent to spread His teaching than I am with the arguments that you have to prove that there is no God.
Perhaps someday you will realise that God doesnt exist. Who knows?
I don't think if that happens I will have any regrets. I don't think I can lose. It is still the best possible way of life I could have ever lived.
I would like to personally let you know if that day comes. In the last 30 some years of walking with Christ it has not come yet.
In fact my enjoyment and experience of the resurrected Son of God is growing more and more as the years go by.
You see it is not easy to believe that you have not been BORN. And it is not easy to believe tha you have not been REBORN in the regeneration of the new testament salvation.
And how do I get the Person living in me out of me? It is not at all that easy.
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou'll have to talk to Allah take me home to someone who has claimed that experience.
And it was just a matter of chance that you didnt call out "Allah take me home".
As for me I have pressed Moslems if they know God. Eventually the answer is that they do not really know God.
So don't just assume stuff. Bring to me a Moslem who said she knows Allah and we then have a basis of comparison.
Which is it? Was Jesus a mad man or a liar?
Or is He as He said, the Son in the Father and the Father in Him?
What would be the motivation for Jesus to lie? Political power? Financial gain? Fame and prestege? Self love and conceit?
He doesn't seem to act consistent with a person who is driven by any of these motives.
Then was He a mad man? How come so many of the moral things He uttered have the trademark of soberness and righteousness to them?
If He was not God manifest in the flesh He certainly deserves an Academy Award.
Originally posted by jaywillJosh McDowell's False Trichotomy makes yet another appearance.
Which is it? Was Jesus a mad man or a liar?
Or is He as He said, the Son in the Father and the Father in Him?
What would be the motivation for Jesus to lie? Political power? Financial gain? Fame and prestege? Self love and conceit?
He doesn't seem to act consistent with a person who is driven by any of these motives.
Then was He a mad ma ...[text shortened]... to them?
If He was not God manifest in the flesh He certainly deserves an Academy Award.