- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
19 Jul 14
Now we are going to discuss, the meaning of John 7:39. The KJV supplies the word given so that the passage reads -
John 7:39King James Version (KJV)
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
The Recovery Version leaves out the editor supplied word given to read this way:
" ... for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." .
QUESTION THEN - If the Bible says that the Spirit is the eternal Spirit (Hebrews 9:11) how can the Gospel of John say that the Spirit was not yet ?
QUESTION - If in the first chapter of Genesis the Bible says "the Spirit of God was brooding upon the surface of the waters" (Gen. 1:2) how can the Gospel of John say that the Spirit was not yet?
Here's John's whole passage:
"Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:37-39)
So when was the Spirit "yet"? When was the Spirit ?
19 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipThe word "given" is supplied in English to complete the thought. Obviously something has to be "given" before it can be "received".
Now we are going to discuss, the meaning of [b]John 7:39. The KJV supplies the word given so that the passage reads -
...[text shortened]... ed." (John 7:37-39) [/b] [/quote]
John 7:39King James Version (KJV)
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
So when was the Spirit "yet"? When was the Spirit ?[/b]
19 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipAwesome subject.
But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:37-39) [/quote]
So when was the Spirit "yet"? When was the Spirit ?[/b]
Compare with this, later in John:
"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." -- John 16:5-13, KJV
19 Jul 14
3 edits
Originally posted by SuzianneAnd this:
Awesome subject.
Compare with this, later in John:
"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you ...[text shortened]... r he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." -- John 16:5-13, KJV
John 14:16-17 King James Version (KJV)
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
And this:
John 15:26 King James Version (KJV)
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
19 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipDirect me to the "recovery version" please. I mean in terms of literal veracity.
Now we are going to discuss, the meaning of [b]John 7:39. The KJV supplies the word given so that the passage reads -
...[text shortened]... ed." (John 7:37-39) [/b] [/quote]
John 7:39King James Version (KJV)
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
So when was the Spirit "yet"? When was the Spirit ?[/b]
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
20 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by Suzianne
Awesome subject.
Compare with this, later in John:
"But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?
But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you ...[text shortened]... r he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." -- John 16:5-13, KJV
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." -- John 16:5-13, KJV
I very much appreciate this reference.
Maybe you could speak to the matter that this One to come, the Holy Spirit, acts just like the Lord Jesus. Notice -
" for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
Doesn't this coming One remind us exactly of the way Jesus lived?
IE. John 5:30 - "I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge, and My judgement is just, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me."
This coming Holy Spirit is to behave in the exact same way. I say He is the Lord Jesus Christ in His form as One who can convict man's innermost conscience and even indwell man's being.
Notice again this coming Spirit is so much like Christ in John 5:19.
"Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son of Man can do nothing from Himself except what He sees the Father doing, for whatever that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner." (John 5:19)
And again in John 16 the Holy Spirit will act exactly as the Son of God acted -
"But even if I judge, My judgement is true, for I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent Me." (John 8:16)
What do you think about the fact that the living of the coming Holy Spirit is exactly reminiscent of the Lord Jesus as a physical man walking on earth ?
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." -- John 16:5-13, KJV
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
20 Jul 14
Originally posted by RJHinds
The word "given" is supplied in English to complete the thought. Obviously something has to be "given" before it can be "received".
The word "given" is supplied in English to complete the thought. Obviously something has to be "given" before it can be "received".
I agree totally that what has not been "given" cannot be received.
But also what is not yet or does not exist yet also cannot be given or received.
I think either with the given supplied in English or not so as to simply read "the Spirit was not yet" we are most likely dealing with the same truth.
There was " not yet was there Spirit" in the disciple's experience. That is the Emphasized Bibles rendering of that passage -
Now |this| spake he concerning the Spirit which they who believed on him were about to receive; for |not yet| was there Spirit, because ||Jesus|| |not yet| was glorified.
This is very subjective - "There was not yet Spirit ...".
This is interesting because the Spirit of God was there in Genesis 1 brooding over the surface of the deep and Hebrews speaks of the Spirit of God as being "eternal" as God Himself is eternal. Yet the Spirit was not yet, there was not yet Spirit, and to the disciples He was not yet given.
I have no fears at all with the passage 1 Cor. 15:45 which says - 'So it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul"; the last Adam became a life giving Spirit.'
I have no concerns for that because it is logical. The eternal Spirit before the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Jesus was only of the divinity of God. But after the incarnation, human living, death, and resurrection of the Man Jesus the Eternal Spirit was of this Nazarene who had come to be our Lord and Savior.
He was in some way brought up into the Spirit of the Eternal Spirit and - "the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit" .
He is as significant as the first SOUL - Adam.
For this last Adam, Jesus Christ, like the first Adam, is the HEAD of a new humanity a new "race" of God-men. He is the second man or the second initiator and head of a new humanity united with God.
This Spirit was not yet. Needless to say He was not yet given. He was not yet until Jesus was glorified.
State your view if you see this differently. You can explain when you feel Jesus was "glorified" so that the Spirit could be given. But above all, enjoy the Spirit that has now BEEN given. Amen.
20 Jul 14
Originally posted by sonshipI still believe that "given" is included to make the meaning clear in English. I don't believe the intent was to say the Spirit did not exist yet.The word "given" is supplied in English to complete the thought. Obviously something has to be "given" before it can be "received".
I agree totally that what has not been "given" cannot be received.
But also what is not yet or does not exist yet also cannot be given or received.
I think either with the given supplied ...[text shortened]... the Spirit could be given. But above all, enjoy the Spirit that has now BEEN given. Amen.
20 Jul 14
2 edits
Originally posted by sonshipAlthough others in scripture have been filled with the Spirit ("he ran ahead of the horsemen" ), and that the Spirit is mentioned even before creation began ("hovered over the water" ), technically, the Spirit had not been 'officially' given to mankind.
Now we are going to discuss, the meaning of [b]John 7:39. The KJV supplies the word given so that the passage reads -
...[text shortened]... ed." (John 7:37-39) [/b] [/quote]
John 7:39King James Version (KJV)
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
So when was the Spirit "yet"? When was the Spirit ?[/b]
The question i have for you, sonship, is what does one receive when Baptized in the Spirit? Do you know?
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
21 Jul 14
2 edits
Originally posted by PudgenikPlease allow me to speak to the Baptism of the Spirit latter after I speak more to "for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."
The question i have for you, sonship, is what does one receive when Baptized in the Spirit? Do you know?[/b]
Although others in scripture have been filled with the Spirit ("he ran ahead of the horsemen" ), and that the Spirit is mentioned even before creation began ("hovered over the water" ), technically, the Spirit had not been 'officially' given to mankind.
That was the Spirit of God hovering over after creation had started because the water was already created.
We know that at Pentecost the church was baptized in the Holy Spirit. They were equipped and empowered to testify by this pouring out of the Holy Spirit.
In the past I thought that this is what the Apostle John must have meant when he said - "for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:39b)
Then I changed my mind after some years of being under the ministry of Witnes Lee. I got persuaded of a clearer view.
Though the pouring out of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was from the Jesus sitting at the right hand of God in the third heavens is a outward glory, this could not have been what John meant in his gospel. John definitely ties the receiving of the Spirit to Jesus resurrection before He was publically ascended in Luke 24:50-53 and Acts 1:9-11.
The public ascension was followed by the baptism of the Holy Spirit for power. Before that public ascension the Spirit that was not yet was received by the disciples for divine life and rebirth in John 20.
These are not contradictory receivings of the Holy Spirit. The receiving in John 20 was for life and the receiving in Acts was for power.
Here the resurrected Christ breaths into the disciples the Holy Spirit for their regeneration.
" When therefore it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and while the doors were shut where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them, Peace be to you.
And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. The disciples therefore rejoiced at seeing the Lord. Then Jesus said to them again, Peace be to you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.
And when He had said this, He breathed into them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit." (John 20:19-22)
John must have intended that "Jesus had not yet been glorified" to mean His resurrection. Before Pentecost here Jesus in resurrection breaths into the disciples telling them to receive the Holy Spirit.
This has to remind us of God breathing into the dusty body of Adam in Genesis 2:7 -
"Jehovah God formed man with the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)
Now in this initiating of a new humanity; a humanity of God-men indwelt with by the Third of the Triune God, the Second breaths Himself into the disciples after His resurrection and before Pentecost, telling them to receive this Another Comforter, this Spirit of Reality, Holy Spirit for their BIRTH. I mean into their "new creation" .
This is the receiving of the Spirit that now was available to produce a new humanity at the resurrection of Christ -
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has REGENERATED us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Peter 1:3)
This Spirit was not yet until Jesus Christ had become incarnated, lived 33.3 years on the earth as a human, died, and rose. Jesus. through His incarnation, life, death, and resurrection prepared Himself THIS Spirit. And He was available for causing God in Christ, to live in man for the fulfillment of His eternal purpose.
This Spirit was consummated and was the divine life giving Spirit that the last Adam became.
'So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul"; the last Adam became a life giving Spirit.' (1 Cor. 15:45)
21 Jul 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipThe apostle Paul admitted he did not know it all when he wrote,
Please allow me to speak to the Baptism of the Spirit latter after I speak more to [b]"for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified."
[quote] Although others in scripture have been filled with the Spirit ("he ran ahead of the horsemen" ), and that the Spirit is mentioned even before creation began ("hovered over the water" ), ...[text shortened]... an, Adam, became a living soul"; the last Adam became a life giving Spirit.' (1 Cor. 15:45) [/b][/b]
For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:12-13 NKJV)
We don't know it all either, so let us not get so puffed up with pride that we think we are so wise and enlightened that we know better than the many early Church members that accepted the truth of the early Christian creeds.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
21 Jul 14
Originally posted by Pudgenik
The question i have for you, sonship, is what does one receive when Baptized in the Spirit? Do you know?
The baptism of the Holy Spirit, I believe, is only mentioned twice. Once in connection to the Holy Spirit being poured out upon the church at Pentecost. The other mention is the Holy Spirit being poured out upon the Gentiles in the house of Cornelius.
These two mentions of the baptism of the Holy Spirit per se are the Jews and the Gentiles and all the rest of us being baptized into one Body.
Now there are many instances of someone/s being filled with the Holy Spirit. These are not individual baptisms of the Holy Spirit. But they are experiences of being particularly anointed of the Holy Spirit.
Please do not think that in one short post a subject like this can be adaquately addressed. But very briefly, I believe that Bapstism in the Holy Spirit is once for all upon the whole Body of Christ. It was done perhaps in two stages:
1.) Upon the Jewish believers first at Pentecost
2.) Upon the Gentile believers in the house of Cornelius
In one Spirit we were all baptized into one body and all made to drink of one Spirit says 1 Cor. 12:13.
As to what we got. I think it is more of a Who we were clothed with and identified with. And that I may speak to latter.
There could be more than one experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit. And I do not encourage anyone to seek an individual "baptism of the Holy Spirit". But I would encourage saints to seek experiences of being filled with the Spirit.
I hope this helps a little. You can share with me.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
22 Jul 14
The Spirit is co-equal the Father and the Son. He is eternal (Hebrews 9:14).
But with some profound typology I will describe in picture form how the Holy Spirit as the life giving Spirit which Christ became (1 Cor. 15:45), was prepared.
This is amazing typology in Exodus 30:23-33.
"Moreover Jehovah soke to Moses, saying, You also tak the finest spices of flowing myrrh five hundred shekels, and of gragrant cinnamon half as much, two hundred fifty shekels, and fragrant calamus two hundred fifty shekels, And cassia five hundred shekels, according to the shekel of the sanctuary, and a hin of olive oil.
And you shall make it a holy anointing oil, a perfume compounded according to the perfumer's art; if shall be a holy anointing oil.
And with it you shall anoint the Tent of Meeting and the Ark of the Testimony, And the table and all its utensils, and the lampstand and its utensils, and the altar of incense. ...
And you shall anoint Aaron and his sons and sanctify them that they may serve Me as priests.
And you shall speak to the children of Israel, saying, This shall be a holy anointing oil to Me throughout your generations. Upon the flesh of man it shall not be poured, nor shall you make any like it, according to its composition; it is holy, and it shall be holy to you.
Whoever compounds any like it or whoever puts any of it upona stranger, he shall be cut off from his people."
Remember all the details of this compound anointing oil.