25 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterLet's say the man only has a week to live when he gets the bone
A man needs a bone marrow transplant of he will die. He has no way of saving himself , he needs an outside injection of life giving marrow (analogous with the Spirit) . He receives the treatment he needs but it takes years for him to recover and be restored. At what point is he saved? Is it when he finally overcomes his illness or is it when he receives the marrow he needs?
marrow transplant. The bone marrow transplant takes and he's improving
markedly for three months. But, after that he develops chronic graft-
versus-host disease and dies.
Was he 'saved' by the transplant?
Christian salvation may begin with the influx of the Holy Spirit, but it
doesn't end there. It is a continuous process, one which takes a whole
lifetime to manifest. And, just like the man with the marrow transplant,
there are ways to outwardly see that an individual is saved. One of the
primary ways in which one can tell that an individual is graced with the
Holy Spirit is that s/he does works for those in need. If you don't see
these outward signs, then you can conclude that he has not gotten the
influx of the Holy Spirit.
Nemesio
26 Oct 07
Originally posted by NemesioCurious , you talk like a Christian.?! I'm always fascinated by those who talk as if they have insight into the Christian life and the workings of the Holy Spirit but don't profess to follow Jesus. Are you currently following him? I'm confused , you seem to know so much......
Let's say the man only has a week to live when he gets the bone
marrow transplant. The bone marrow transplant takes and he's improving
markedly for three months. But, after that he develops chronic graft-
versus-host disease and dies.
Was he 'saved' by the transplant?
Christian salvation may begin with the influx of the Holy Spirit, but it
d ...[text shortened]... s, then you can conclude that he has not gotten the
influx of the Holy Spirit.
Nemesio
26 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI'm sorry but your bone marrow analogy probably works better for my views that yours. For one, getting bone marrow in no way guarantees a patient will be "cured." It only helps the process along. ---think of one----
So far as I know, "I don't know" is a valid response. More should use it instead of making up something that "sounds plausible."
Reading the words of Jesus, I'd have to believe that one can tell that oneself has yet to have been "saved" if one continues to sin. So what does Jesus mean by "believe" or "faith"? I have to think that it means to have His ...[text shortened]... it won't return, no doctor would proclaim the patient "cured".
True , but in the analogy the bone marrow is the Holy Spirit which is guaranteed to work. Once the man receives his bone marrow he is on his way and it is only a matter of time before he recovers. However , the truth about whether he has really had the transplant emerges later in his life , but it is still the transplant that saves. I agree that he still has to "work out his salvation" and let the process unfold by applyiong himself otherwise his faith is meaningless. But if his faith is true and meaningful thne the Bible says he is saved at that point and NOT at some later point when his recovery has come to fruition. The Bible is absolutely clear that God means for us to have the assurance of faith and not live in fear or bondage to salvation by works. We are to live as adopted sons and then we are then to learn how to live that life , but we are adopted before we are perfected.
You are entitled to your own opinion about all this but don't pretend that it's Biblical or scripturally sound because it isn't. You only quote scripture that supports your view and you do it in isolation from the larger context.
26 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneUntil the disease is driven out and sufficient time has passed to determine that it won't return, no doctor would proclaim the patient "cured".---think of one----
So far as I know, "I don't know" is a valid response. More should use it instead of making up something that "sounds plausible."
Reading the words of Jesus, I'd have to believe that one can tell that oneself has yet to have been "saved" if one continues to sin. So what does Jesus mean by "believe" or "faith"? I have to think that it means to have His ...[text shortened]... it won't return, no doctor would proclaim the patient "cured".
No Doctor can live inside his patient and have the insight to know that that patient is going to make it. God has the right to proclaim his patients cured because he knows that once they have him in them it's only a matter of time....a fundamental shift has occurred and there's no going back.
26 Oct 07
2 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterThere is much evidence that it doesn't always work. There are those that fall away after 30, 40, even 50 years or more. There are those who have no real intention of overcoming sin. There are those who intend to overcome sin, but who love the desires of the self much more than that of living a life of truth, love, compassion, justice, etc.
I'm sorry but your bone marrow analogy probably works better for my views that yours. For one, getting bone marrow in no way guarantees a patient will be "cured." It only helps the process along. ---think of one----
True , but in the analogy the bone marrow is the Holy Spirit which is guaranteed to work. Once the man receives his bone marrow he is o te scripture that supports your view and you do it in isolation from the larger context.
Show me where Jesus explicitly supports your views. Why do you ignore Jesus and instead rely on extrapolations of what he said? So far as I know, the "larger context" of which you speak are extrapolations.
26 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterDefine the level of "faith" required to be "saved." How does one know he has reached that level?
Until the disease is driven out and sufficient time has passed to determine that it won't return, no doctor would proclaim the patient "cured".---think of one----
No Doctor can live inside his patient and have the insight to know that that patient is going to make it. God has the right to proclaim his patients cured because he knows that once they h ...[text shortened]... m it's only a matter of time....a fundamental shift has occurred and there's no going back.
26 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneDefine the level of "faith" required to be "saved." How does one know he has reached that level? Is crying 'Lord, Lord' sufficent? Jesus says, "No". ------------think of one-----------
So far as I know, "I don't know" is a valid response. More should use it instead of making up something that "sounds plausible."
Reading the words of Jesus, I'd have to believe that one can tell that oneself has yet to have been "saved" if one continues to sin. So what does Jesus mean by "believe" or "faith"? I have to think that it means to have His ...[text shortened]... it won't return, no doctor would proclaim the patient "cured".
This is not my job it's yours. Since Jesus obviously teaches that faith can save and that faith and belief in him leads to eternal life then you had better telll me since you seem an expert on determining what Jesus's teachings are. However , you baulk at the idea of saving faith via the grace of the Holy Spirit so it will be difficult for you to define any level of faith that saves. For you , so it seems, God's bone marrow is not sufficient for a man to declare himself saved, he must recover first before he is saved , which of course is neither scriptural nor sound theology.
Personally I think it's obvious that just crying "Lord , Lord" is enough any more than merely mouthing the words "I love you" makes a marriage. On this we are not in disagreement I guess.
26 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterIt's not at all difficult to define. Jesus does so quite nicely:
Define the level of "faith" required to be "saved." How does one know he has reached that level? Is crying 'Lord, Lord' sufficent? Jesus says, "No". ------------think of one-----------
This is not my job it's yours. Since Jesus obviously teaches that faith can save and that faith and belief in him leads to eternal life then you had better telll me s words "I love you" makes a marriage. On this we are not in disagreement I guess.
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."
The difficulty lies in defining it if you don't believe in what Jesus is saying. Perhaps that's why you keep refusing to define it. So for you it lies somewhere between crying 'Lord, Lord' and actually following the teachings of Jesus. Just where is it? And how does one know he has achieved it?
26 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneHave you achieved it? Do you know the presence of the Holy spirit? Has Jesus and his father made his home with you as he promised?
It's not at all difficult to define. Jesus does so quite nicely:
[b]"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."
The difficulty lies in defin ...[text shortened]... g the teachings of Jesus. Just where is it? And how does one know he has achieved it?[/b]
26 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThe difficulty lies in defining it if you don't believe in what Jesus is saying. Perhaps that's why you keep refusing to define it. So for you it lies somewhere between crying 'Lord, Lord' and actually following the teachings of Jesus. Just where is it? And how does one know he has achieved it? ---think of one-----
It's not at all difficult to define. Jesus does so quite nicely:
[b]"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."
The difficulty lies in defin ...[text shortened]... g the teachings of Jesus. Just where is it? And how does one know he has achieved it?[/b]
Again you refer to black and white terms and do not allow for the possibility of someone who is committed to following jesus but is maybe not as good as you at doing it. I obviously fall into this catagory in your eyes. I'm not overly bothered by this because I see that there is a huge piece of the jesus jigsaw that you miss (namely unconditional love , patience and acceptance ) so it follows that I think that you are only grasping or following half of the truth yourself. Maybe we can learn from each other?
The point is that one cannot approach God and say "look I have achieved such and such --I have earned salvation " because he will just laugh at you. There is no "achieving" salvation because what follows conversion is an outworking of salvation via grace. The Bible clearly tells us that we are to have an assurance of salvation via faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and nothing that Jesus says contradicts this at all. If our faith is false then he knows and we will know and works will not follow. Unless you can look inside a person's soul and find out that they have given over their inner being to christ's spirit then you will never know for sure about anyone but yourself. However , if the person who has had the bone marrow stays ill for years and years we are entitled to question the validity of their so called transplant , even so there may be surprises and such a person might have had a really malignant illness to battle with.
26 Oct 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterSo you agree that salvation merely begins with the influx of the Holy
Curious , you talk like a Christian.?! I'm always fascinated by those who talk as if they have insight into the Christian life and the workings of the Holy Spirit but don't profess to follow Jesus. Are you currently following him? I'm confused , you seem to know so much......
Spirit, but doesn't end there. That is, a man isn't saved at a discrete
moment but over the course of his lifetime, a lifetime which serves as
the outward manifestation of the inward grace received.
Consequently, we could conclude that an individual who claims to be
on the path of salvation -- that is, having received the infusion of the
Holy Spirit as above -- who does not do works of charity and compassion
as described by Jesus is, in fact, not saved.
Nemesio
27 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterI'm game. Convince me. You didn't address this from an earlier post, so maybe you missed it.
The difficulty lies in defining it if you don't believe in what Jesus is saying. Perhaps that's why you keep refusing to define it. So for you it lies somewhere between crying 'Lord, Lord' and actually following the teachings of Jesus. Just where is it? And how does one know he has achieved it? ---think of one-----
Again you refer to black and white surprises and such a person might have had a really malignant illness to battle with.
"Show me where Jesus explicitly supports your views. Why do you ignore Jesus and instead rely on extrapolations of what he said? So far as I know, the "larger context" of which you speak are extrapolations."
27 Oct 07
I can not believe that one would debate god.
The issue is not god, he is just a symbol. The real debate should surround the concept of FAITH.
Because any operating/belief system one chooses to use to get through this thing we call life requires FAITH in some basic or core thing that the system is built off of.
Many will say that science is the way. But all science offers is stuff that can not be dis-proven. Very similar to religion. Religion offers an answer that can not be disproved......hmmmmmmmm sound familiar. Now those that worship at the church of logic will defend how right that path is because it is constantly changing to fit the situation (things are disproved, new ideas are floated that can not be disproved for now).
I kind of liken it to situational ethics, verse one basic set of rules.
And this basic need for faith is one reason I truly respect the catholic religion. They often discuss how your faith is the key. And that is soooooooooo true.
27 Oct 07
Originally posted by 8DEr. The Roman Catholic Church is all about having a set of rules. That's what the Catechism is;
I kind of liken it to situational ethics, verse one basic set of rules.
And this basic need for faith is one reason I truly respect the catholic religion. They often discuss how your faith is the key. And that is soooooooooo true.
it's a list of the things a Roman Catholic is obligated to believe. Nothing situational about it. The
only time the Roman Catholic is called to apply situational ethics is when s/he is confronted with
a situation that isn't addressed by the Catechism or the Magesterium of the Church.
Nemesio
27 Oct 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneFirstly ,the one thing I'm wondering about all this is whether you follow Jesus's teachings on himself? Jesus taught that he was the son of the living God and that we would come to realise this via the Holy Spirit. He taught that he would die for our sins and that his body was to be broken for us so that we might live. He explicitly said that he had to die and rise again so that the saving power of the spirit could be released on the world and that his blood was to be the worthy sacrifice for the sins of the world. We would then receive the power and forgiveness of his justifying sacrifice through faith. He would then become the great high priest for us all to intercede for us before God.
I'm game. Convince me. You didn't address this from an earlier post, so maybe you missed it.
"Show me where Jesus explicitly supports your views. Why do you ignore Jesus and instead rely on extrapolations of what he said? So far as I know, the "larger context" of which you speak are extrapolations."
So you either believe in his teachings on this or you don't. If you don't believe and follow his teachings on this (eg taking communion , meeting and sharing the gifts of the Holy Spirit with others ) then why should you be taken seriously regarding other things he said and what gives you the right to criticize others if you do not believe yourself in some of the central teachings of jesus?