The truth will make you free

Originally posted by knightmeister
Firstly ,the one thing I'm wondering about all this is whether you follow Jesus's teachings on himself? Jesus taught that he was the son of the living God and that we would come to realise this via the Holy Spirit. He taught that he would die for our sins and that his body was to be broken for us so that we might live. He explicitly said that he had to ...[text shortened]... o criticize others if you do not believe yourself in some of the central teachings of jesus?

Are those his 'central teachings'? Or does this point to what He viewed as His central teachings?:


Matthew 22:37-40
And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Are those his 'central teachings'? Or does this point to what He viewed as His central teachings?:

[b]
Matthew 22:37-40
And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.[/b]

Are those his 'central teachings'? Or does this point to what He viewed as His central teachings?: ---think of one-----

A moments thought will reveal to you that the teachings of christ relating to what his death on the cross was to accomplish for man are indeed just as central as anything else. Consider this . If Jesus's only aim was to give us these teachings to deny the ego/self and follow him ( which I don't have a problem with by the way) then why did he not continue to live amongst us for many more years giving us the valuable advice that we need?

No, instead his whole life built up to his sacrifice on the cross and the giving of his body and blood for our redemption , a mission which he embraced at great personal cost and which he knew God wanted him to fulfil. His death on the cross for our sins is a central theme of his whole life , and is obviously the final act of his earthly life.

Now you either believe he died on the cross for you and me , released the Holy Spirit onto the world , rose again and atoned for sins or you don't. If you don't then you are not subscribing to a central theme and teaching of Jesus are you? I hear what Jesus says in the passages you quote and I also hear what he says about his own impending death .You claim to be a friend/follower of Jesus and jesus said he would lay down his life for his friends , did he lay down his life for you?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Are those his 'central teachings'? Or does this point to what He viewed as His central teachings?: ---think of one-----

A moments thought will reveal to you that the teachings of christ relating to what his death on the cross was to accomplish for man are indeed just as central as anything else. Consider this . If Jesus's only aim was to give us the jesus said he would lay down his life for his friends , did he lay down his life for you?

Provide the verses where Jesus supports what you're saying and I'll take a look.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Provide the verses where Jesus supports what you're saying and I'll take a look.

What? So you don't think he said anything about "this is my body broken for you , this is my blood etc etc" or did he not say " I must go away so that the Spirit may come" . Did he not see his death as a mission that he must accomplish " father , if it be possible take this cup from me"? Start reading from John 6 verse 25 onwards and you will get the picture. Jesus sees himself as the bread of life which must be broken for all mankind. He also interesting stresses belief in him as important. John 15 1-17 is good also. Notice how the closer he gets to his death he starts to talk like this. Being a Jew, he would also have been highly aware of the significance of blood and sacrifice and it's role in the passover and cleansing of sins.

Now , it's time you stopped stalling and answer the questions.

a) Do you believe jesus died for you and your sins?
b) Do you believe in hell?
c) Do you take communion and believe in the presence of the Holy Spirit?
d) Do you believe Christ lives in you and that you remain in him as he commanded?

All these things were part of his teachings...and if you don't subscribe to them then how can you reprimand anyone about the rights and wrongs of following Jesus. Didn't Jesus also say something about planks and specks?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Provide the verses where Jesus supports what you're saying and I'll take a look.

Provide the verses where Jesus supports what you're saying and I'll take a look.---think of one----

Found another one............

matthew 26 verse 27

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
But the Truth WILL make you free.

Unfortunately the vast majority (including Christians, perhaps especially even) never reach enlightenment.

The truth is a person, and that truth can and will set you free, though
many prefer the 'figure it out' method of enlightenment, it avoids the
contact with the one who is the truth and the light of man, helps them
avoid walking in His ways.
Kelly

Originally posted by knightmeister
What? So you don't think he said anything about "this is my body broken for you , this is my blood etc etc" or did he not say " I must go away so that the Spirit may come" . Did he not see his death as a mission that he must accomplish " father , if it be possible take this cup from me"? Start reading from John 6 verse 25 onwards and you will get the d wrongs of following Jesus. Didn't Jesus also say something about planks and specks?

I see John 6:25+ as hinging on what Jesus might have meant by the word "believe", which is where we've been stalled for some time. I do not however see it as explicitly supporting your views, though I can see from where inferences might have been drawn.

I see John 15:1-17 as hinging on verses 10 and 14:
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love."
"You are My friends if you do what I command you."

I see Matthew 26:26-29 as giving them a ritual as a reminder to John 6:25+. See my comments above. While ritualistic reminders can be important, keep in mind that they point to the real flesh and blood of his teachings. To his commandments.

John 14:15-23
If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you. Yet a little while, and the world beholdeth me no more; but ye behold me: because I live, ye shall live also. In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Note the conditions on which the above hinge. I have to think that these conditions indicate what he might have meant by "believe".

Originally posted by KellyJay
The truth is a person, and that truth can and will set you free, though
many prefer the 'figure it out' method of enlightenment, it avoids the
contact with the one who is the truth and the light of man, helps them
avoid walking in His ways.
Kelly

This can be read a number of different ways. Care to be more specific?

Originally posted by KellyJay
The truth is a person, and that truth can and will set you free...

How can the Truth be a person without also encapsulating the things that such a person teaches?
If Jesus is the Way, Truth and Light, then that which comprises Jesus -- not the least of which
are His teachings -- is what is the Way, Truth and Light.

So, if Jesus is 'your way,' then loving your neighbor and enemy must be your way, too. If Jesus
is 'your truth,' then feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, comforting the afflicted is
your truth, too. If Jesus is 'your light,' then you will know that the works you do which testify to
your graced state serve as your illumination as well.

Nemesio

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I see John 6:25+ as hinging on what Jesus might have meant by the word "believe", which is where we've been stalled for some time. I do not however see it as explicitly supporting your views, though I can see from where inferences might have been drawn.

I see John 15:1-17 as hinging on verses 10 and 14:
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in ...[text shortened]... I have to think that these conditions indicate what he might have meant by "believe".

Note the conditions on which the above hinge. I have to think that these conditions indicate what he might have meant by "believe".
----think of one------

Yes , yes , this is all very well and I see what you are saying but you are still stalling for time. Do you believe that (matthew 26 .27) Jesus's blood was given for forgiveness of sins and atonement? He clearly did (otherwise what would be the point of him dying willing in service of his father)...so do you? Do you also believe that via Jesus's death the Holy Spirit was granted to the world for the purpose of salvation and via the Holy Spirit Jesus was to dwell with us (where two or more are gathered..there will I be amongst them).

I'm going for your achilles heel now and I'm letting you know what I am doing up front. You have been sounding like a broken record for a while now but now it's someone else's turn. Are your beliefs in line with what Jesus taught us to believe about him and who he was and what he came to do? I suggest they are not. Do you believe the things that Jesus clearly taught about himself?

It may take a few threads to wear you down , but until you can show that you are aligning yourself with this major area of jesus's teachings then how can we take you seriously on anything else? You do not believe he was the son of the living God nor that he was ressurected , nor that his death was to atone for our sins and his body broken for us. You seemingly do not believe in hell either , so how many other teachings of jesus do you not subscribe to?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I see John 6:25+ as hinging on what Jesus might have meant by the word "believe", which is where we've been stalled for some time. I do not however see it as explicitly supporting your views, though I can see from where inferences might have been drawn.

I see John 15:1-17 as hinging on verses 10 and 14:
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in I have to think that these conditions indicate what he might have meant by "believe".

Note the conditions on which the above hinge. I have to think that these conditions indicate what he might have meant by "believe".
---think of one----

BTW- Conditions or no conditions , the point is that Jesus refers to himself as the bread (his body) which is broken for us for the atonement of sins. He clearly bought into the passover symbolism (of which he would be highly acquainted) and drew a direct analogy between himself and the cleansing of sin via his sacrifice . He willingly became the lamb of God for us. There can be no ambiguity about this. You either believe that his teaching on this and follow it or you don't. Do you follow it? Or do you filter his words to mean something else entirely? Do you even believe he rose from the dead (something else that jesus clearly taught)? Just give a straight answer to a straight question please.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I see John 6:25+ as hinging on what Jesus might have meant by the word "believe", which is where we've been stalled for some time. I do not however see it as explicitly supporting your views, though I can see from where inferences might have been drawn.

I see John 15:1-17 as hinging on verses 10 and 14:
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in I have to think that these conditions indicate what he might have meant by "believe".

...the word "believe", which is where we've been stalled for some time.

No, where you've been stalled for some time. You've been attempting to change the meaning of the word "believe" to fit your particular theology. You want it to mean, "keeping God's commandments," but you are missing a step. Let me define the word "believe" as it used by Christ, and then let me explain why believing is the precursor to "keeping God's commandments."

The Greek word pisteuo is used by Christ to delineate that which one must have in Him in order to be saved. Pisteuo is translated, "to trust, trust to or in, put faith in, rely on, believe in." Here is the dictionary definition of trust: "reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, surety, etc., of a person or thing; confidence"; faith: "confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability"; to rely: "to depend confidently; put trust in"; and believe: "to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so."

All true Christians have confidence in Jesus Christ, particularly in the work which He accomplished on the cross on their behalf (Eph. 3:12). This confidence is the essence of faith (Heb. 11:1). Without faith, there is no keeping God's commandments. Why? Because, as 1 John 5:2-4 declares, faith is borne of God:

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith."

Those who receive grace, keep God's commandments. And how do they keep God's commandments? By faith!!! Note what Augustine says here regarding good works, "Fire is not hot in order that it may burn, but because it burns. A wheel does not run nicely in order that it may be round, but because it is round. So no one does good works in order that he may receive grace, but because he has received grace."

---------------------

BTW, you did not answer knightmeister's questions:

a) Do you believe Jesus died for you and your sins?
b) Do you believe in hell?
c) Do you take communion and believe in the presence of the Holy Spirit?
d) Do you believe Christ lives in you and that you remain in him as he commanded?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Note the conditions on which the above hinge. I have to think that these conditions indicate what he might have meant by "believe".
----think of one------

Yes , yes , this is all very well and I see what you are saying but you are still stalling for time. Do you believe that (matthew 26 .27) Jesus's blood was given for forgiveness of sins and atone believe in hell either , so how many other teachings of jesus do you not subscribe to?

It matters little to me if you "take [me] seriously." What I do find disturbing is an apparent reluctance to take Jesus seriously.

"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

"Why do you call me,'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?"


How many different ways does he need to say it? Do you want to follow Jesus or do you want to follow "Christianity"? From what I can tell, they are not the same thing. They aren't even close. I see the teachings of Jesus as deep and giving. I see the teachings of "Christianity" as shallow and self-serving.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]...the word "believe", which is where we've been stalled for some time.

No, where you've been stalled for some time. You've been attempting to change the meaning of the word "believe" to fit your particular theology. You want it to mean, "keeping God's commandments," but you are missing a step. Let me define the word "believe" as it u hrist lives in you and that you remain in him as he commanded?[/b]

Pisteuo is translated, "to trust, trust to or in, put faith in, rely on, believe in." Here is the dictionary definition of trust: "reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, surety, etc., of a person or thing; confidence"; faith: "confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability"; to rely: "to depend confidently; put trust in"; and believe: "to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so."

Well done; very well done.

The English word originally meant to hold dear; the problem arises in discourse when people use it the more modern sense of (without going to the dictionary) assent to a proposition, or an opinion; to think that X is in fact true. In it’s original sense, “believe” was a perfectly acceptable, if somewhat poetic, translation—prompted by the fact that pisteo does not mean strictly to “have” faith, but to faith (or trust), being an active verb.

As long as the words believe and belief are used to translate pisteo and pistis, they need to be understood in the kind of “technical” sense you have presented here.

Aside: The English words trust, truth and troth are related, and have common Germanic roots. In some languages, the word for truth is the same as (or related to) the word for being or reality (e.g., sat, satya in Sanskrit). The Greek word aletheia means unconcealed. The different etymologies often lend different connotations in translation.—which, of course, can conjure up different theological understandings.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]...the word "believe", which is where we've been stalled for some time.

No, where you've been stalled for some time. You've been attempting to change the meaning of the word "believe" to fit your particular theology. You want it to mean, "keeping God's commandments," but you are missing a step. Let me define the word "believe" as it u hrist lives in you and that you remain in him as he commanded?[/b]

Ephin , to me it doesn't even matter what he means by "believe" as such because I don't feel that believing in Christ's saving blood and believing in his commandments and teachings are mutually exclusive. Think of One sees them on oppositie poles and cannot understand (or so it seems) how Christ can mean both.
Faith in God's grace to me doesn't mean that we are not to follow his teachings , you would agree on this I guess? think of One sees this as an either / or issue which I think is where he doesn't understand. What I don't get is how he seems to take jesus's word so earnestly and without ambiguity on some things (when it suits) and not so earnestly on things like atonement , forgiveness and the purpose of his death. I wonder what Tof One thinks Jesus was trying to achieve on the cross? Does he think he was misguided or deluded or something? Bizarre!