The truth will make you free

Originally posted by twhitehead
Actually it works just as well for other martyrs.

[b]which of course neglects that he was also fully human.
Ahem, not possible.

He was just as human as you or I , he felt pain , fear and grief and compassion. The fact that he "sweated blood" over his impending fate tells us something.
And since when is sweating blood possible for humans ...[text shortened]... ally be called the ultimate sacrifice? Surely it is either work for reward or self delusion?[/b]

And since when is sweating blood possible for humans? Yep it tells us a lot. - whitey-----

I did put it in quotations so as to refer to the possible metaphoric use of the term. Either way the phrase implies high levels of anxiety. Once again you have pedantically chosen to jump on this phrase and miss the point being made. Never mind , I'm used to it.

Originally posted by whodey
The medical term is called matidrosis and YES its very possible when under a great deal of stress and is documented medically. Just a simple stroll to Wiki should give you a nice eeeducation.

Wikipedia says it has never heard of it. Were you referring to another wiki or did you spell it wrong?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I did put it in quotations so as to refer to the possible metaphoric use of the term. Either way the phrase implies high levels of anxiety. Once again you have pedantically chosen to jump on this phrase and miss the point being made. Never mind , I'm used to it.

It still doesn't make sense. Why would he be anxious? Why didn't he just take some pain killers? Was that too hard for God? Or was self inflicted pain part of the 'lesson'? How do we know that he actually felt the pain? Maybe the whole sweating blood thing was just for show to emphasize the point. After all as per our other thread on the subject the whole idea was to make us realize how serious it all is and really has nothing to do with God actually hurting himself. It was all just symbolism in terms that the people would understand. But as I say, once you believe in an afterlife, the symbolism breaks down. Catch 22.

Originally posted by twhitehead
It still doesn't make sense. Why would he be anxious? Why didn't he just take some pain killers? Was that too hard for God? Or was self inflicted pain part of the 'lesson'? How do we know that he actually felt the pain? Maybe the whole sweating blood thing was just for show to emphasize the point. After all as per our other thread on the subject the whole ...[text shortened]... rstand. But as I say, once you believe in an afterlife, the symbolism breaks down. Catch 22.

But as I say, once you believe in an afterlife, the symbolism breaks down. Catch 22.------whitey----

You think because I believe that I will be ressurected at the end of time that the thought of dying would not make me anxious? You think that the process of actually dying becomes easy? In some computer game maybe. ! Your argument is absolutely totally logical and rational , and that's the problem with it. It takes no account of the basic experience of being a human being and having feelings. Well done Mr Spock!

Originally posted by twhitehead
Wikipedia says it has never heard of it. Were you referring to another wiki or did you spell it wrong?

hematidrosis or hematohidrosis
It's nothing special. Simply the blood vessels near the sweat glands may pass some blood and when you sweat, voila.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You think because I believe that I will be ressurected at the end of time that the thought of dying would not make me anxious? You think that the process of actually dying becomes easy? In some computer game maybe. ! Your argument is absolutely totally logical and rational , and that's the problem with it. It takes no account of the basic experience of being a human being and having feelings. Well done Mr Spock!

I think that if you truly believe it then yes, the process of actually dying should not be that big a concern for you. In practice it usually seems to concern theists far more than non-theists.
So why do you think it is such a big concern for you? What 'feelings' are you talking about? Pain? Fear? Please elaborate. Or are you going with the "its irrational, live with it" defense.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I think that if you truly believe it then yes, the process of actually dying should not be that big a concern for you. In practice it usually seems to concern theists far more than non-theists.
So why do you think it is such a big concern for you? What 'feelings' are you talking about? Pain? Fear? Please elaborate. Or are you going with the "its irrational, live with it" defense.

If I actually have to explain why looking up at a cross and knowing that you are about to be nailed to it and killed would be anxiety provoking for a human being then I'm beaten here. This is almost laughable , infact it is! What colour is the sky in your world?

Originally posted by knightmeister
If I actually have to explain why looking up at a cross and knowing that you are about to be nailed to it and killed would be anxiety provoking for a human being then I'm beaten here. This is almost laughable , infact it is! What colour is the sky in your world?

So you are going with the "I don't have an explanation so I'll pretend its obvious and give up" defense. You are starting to sound like Kelly and his car keys.

What on earth does "killed" mean anyway for a theist? Surely the connotations you are going for simply do not apply. The anxiety about death for most human beings is based entirely on the premise that you are not sure what will follow or that you believe that what will follow is undesirable.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So you are going with the "I don't have an explanation so I'll pretend its obvious and give up" defense. You are starting to sound like Kelly and his car keys.

What on earth does "killed" mean anyway for a theist? Surely the connotations you are going for simply do not apply. The anxiety about death for most human beings is based entirely on the premis ...[text shortened]... ou are not sure what will follow or that you believe that what will follow is undesirable.

I have no agreed point of reference from which I can make an argument that is coherent to you because you seem oblivious to some aspects of what it is to be human.Fear of death is not an intellectual exercise. There are some things that Mr Spock just can't relate to because they are off his map.In your case it's not that there is no explanation , it's just that there is no locus from which I can work. I'm giving it all I've got captain but the di-lithium crystals won't take much more of this!

Originally posted by knightmeister
I have no agreed point of reference from which I can make an argument that is coherent to you because you seem oblivious to some aspects of what it is to be human.Fear of death is not an intellectual exercise. There are some things that Mr Spock just can't relate to because they are off his map.In your case it's not that there is no explanation , it's ...[text shortened]... m giving it all I've got captain but the di-lithium crystals won't take much more of this!

So what is it like to take the sins of the whole world on one's shoulders? How could any of us know that?

And yet, you need to know it, at least to some degree, to call Christ's sacrifice 'ultimate'. Without it, Christ's sacrifice is trumped by, say, a prisoner of war who is tortured daily for years, or just any mere mortal who gives up his life for another, with no promise of resurrection.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Thanks for at least having a go at it! (It took you an hour?What?) I would agree that Jesus was far more interested in getting people to follow love and compassion and justice than he was in making sure they got their theology right on hell. This is a good point. However , what emerges here is that there are major differences between your world view a s but still feel you can dig away at nominal christians yourself. Why do you do this?

Let's see, I'd put "hell , satan , the second coming" in the possible category. I'd put communion in the ritual category. It seems you attach great significance to it and believe that Jesus did also. I haven't seen where Jesus said the He thought it essential. Can you point me to something?

I have a conception of what the Holy Spirit is and have that as my guide. Others have remarked that they think that it is very strong in me.

As for "the atoning sacrifice of Jesus's blood", well, it's sort of an interesting concept, though I have to believe that the common conception insofar as I'm aware is very much a product of "Christianity." There's some mess there that seems to very much contradict various statements made by Jesus. Can you point me to verses where Jesus describes the concept?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Let's see, I'd put "hell , satan , the second coming" in the possible category. I'd put communion in the ritual category. It seems you attach great significance to it and believe that Jesus did also. I haven't seen where Jesus said the He thought it essential. Can you point me to something?

I have a conception of what the Holy Spirit is and have that a ments made by Jesus. Can you point me to verses where Jesus describes the concept?

As for "the atoning sacrifice of Jesus's blood", well, it's sort of an interesting concept, though I have to believe that the common conception insofar as I'm aware is very much a product of "Christianity."----THINKOFONE------




Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mark 14:24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.

(What new testament/covenant do you think Jesus was refering to?)



Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things [are] possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

(Why did jesus think that it was his father's will that he should die on the cross?)

Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Matthew 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

(Jesus here says that his death on the cross must not be prevented because it will fulfil scripture - this logically can be linked with what Jesus called the new testament/covenant)

The question now for you is what is jesus talking about here when he says his blood will be shed for the remission of sins? Why does he buy so heavily into the passover symbolism and timing during the last supper with all it's well known conotations regarding the blood sacrifice of a lamb for remission of sins? What mission is he on that his father wills his death on the cross?

"Christianity" as you put it has come up with the only logical interpretation of Jesus's statements. What is your solution to these statements? You might like to bear Isaiah 53:4 in mind when thinking about this and also bear in mind that Jesus was very well versed in the torah and would have known about Isaiah's prophecy as follows.....

Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Hmmmm ...kinda makes you wonder what Jesus meant when he said "here is my blood shed for the remission of sins" ? AND he did it during passover as a Jew , knowing full well what the shedding of blood meant during this time.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Let's see, I'd put "hell , satan , the second coming" in the possible category. I'd put communion in the ritual category. It seems you attach great significance to it and believe that Jesus did also. I haven't seen where Jesus said the He thought it essential. Can you point me to something?

I have a conception of what the Holy Spirit is and have that a ments made by Jesus. Can you point me to verses where Jesus describes the concept?

I have a conception of what the Holy Spirit is and have that as my guide. Others have remarked that they think that it is very strong in me.

Your conception of the Holy Spirit is that mankind is born with the Holy Spirit, which is completely opposite of what Christ taught and the rest of scripture bears out. On top of that, you believe that faith in the person Jesus Christ isn't necessary for salvation. It is safe to say, considering these two monumental errors, that you, sir, most definitely do not have the Holy Spirit as your guide.

This passage from John proves two things: (1) the Holy Spirit was not given until after Jesus died, and (2) that the Holy Spirit's job is to convict the world of its failure to believe in Jesus Christ. Both are contrary to your misguided beliefs.

"But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don’t, the Advocate won’t come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you. And when he comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God’s righteousness, and of the coming judgment. The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me. Righteousness is available because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more. Judgment will come because the ruler of this world has already been judged" (John 16:7-11).

The Holy Spirit's message to you is: repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

-----------------------

ThinkOfOne, you've been duped by the spirit of Antichrist if you think you are actually led by the Holy Spirit. Only the spirit of Antichrist gives birth to the kinds of errors you are pandering. Like whodey pointed out, the word "devil' means, "accuser of the brethren," and accusing Christians is your bread and butter. False prophets, like yourself, pretend to be followers of Christ, yet you preach nothing but salvation according to works.

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works" (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).

False prophets seek to enslave Christians under the old law of works. But we are born-again under God's grace in Christ Jesus, and are free from the old law of works. Realize who you serve, ThinkOfOne, repent and believe in Jesus Christ. Otherwise God will give you exactly what you want, which is to be judged according to your works.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]I have a conception of what the Holy Spirit is and have that as my guide. Others have remarked that they think that it is very strong in me.

Your conception of the Holy Spirit is that mankind is born with the Holy Spirit, which is completely opposite of what Christ taught and the rest of scripture bears out. On top of that, you believe that fa will give you exactly what you want, which is to be judged according to your works.[/b]

Now see, there you go again misrepresenting my views. How is it that someone who professes to follow the God of Truth, so consistently misrepresents the views of others?

In case you missed this earlier:
I'd like to have a discussion with you, but as I pointed out earlier, you seem incapable of doing so at this time in your life.

Any chance you might be able to bring yourself to honor our agreement to agree to disagree?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Now see, there you go again misrepresenting my views. How is it that someone who professes to follow the God of Truth, so consistently misrepresents the views of others?

In case you missed this earlier:
I'd like to have a discussion with you, but as I pointed out earlier, you seem incapable of doing so at this time in your life.

Any chance you might be able to bring yourself to honor our agreement to agree to disagree?

Now see, there you go again misrepresenting my views. How is it that someone who professes to follow the God of Truth, so consistently misrepresents the views of others?

LOL! You and I both know I'm not misrepresenting your views.

Any chance you might be able to bring yourself to honor our agreement to agree to disagree?

We never had an agreement. I said I would agree to disagree, if you first point out exactly where we disagree.

Which means **gasp** you might actually have to respond to one of my posts! 🙂