The truth will make you free

Originally posted by knightmeister
I can't understand why the words of Jesus don't sway you:
[b]"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

I'm thinking if he meant, "except for those who say they believe in me, take communion, and are in the process of trying to overcome sin", he'd have said it.[/ t us free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5crbZJs9sg[/b]

That's an interesting interpretation. Let's see what this says without looking through the lens of "Christianity."

So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
IF you follow the teachings of Jesus: 1) you are a disciple of Jesus 2) you will know the truth 3) the truth will make you free. All are predicated on following His teachings. You must follow his teachings to be made free. Otherwise you remain a slave.

They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Abraham's descendants have never been slaves to men. How can they become free?

Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
Everyone who COMMITS SIN is the slave of sin. Such a slave does not remain in the house forever. One who is free does remain forever. One who has been made free by following the teachings of Jesus is truly free.

Without the lens of "Christianity" distorting the picture, His words mean just what He says and it's all straight-forward and logical.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I really have no motivation for creating a "contradiction that is not really there." Think of one-------------

I did not say that , I said simply that you see an apparent contradiction in Jesus's teachings.

I didn't mean you imply you did.

I just wanted to point out a motivation for distorting the picture.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
That's an interesting interpretation. Let's see what this says without looking through the lens of "Christianity."

[b]So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
IF you follow the teachings of Jesus: 1) you y", His words mean just what He says and it's all straight-forward and logical.[/b]

Everyone who COMMITS SIN is the slave of sin. Such a slave does not remain in the house forever. One who is free does remain forever. One who has been made free by following the teachings of Jesus is truly free.-----------Think of one---------


So for you when Jesus says the "son sets you free" he actually means that following his teachings sets us free?

The problem is that his teachings INCLUDE recognising him as the lamb of God slain for the remission of sin , via the cross. We must also ask ourselves why he said the "son sets you free" rather than "if you stop committing sin then you will set yourself free" which would have been much clearer. However , I have to believe that jesus was here to do more than just say 'stop committing sin' since this would just be a repetition of what people like Isaiah taught. The Jews already knew that sin was the problem , the real crunch was how to overcome it and be right with God. Enter stage right ...Jesus.

Now , we do still need to follow his teachings but how are we to be empowered to do so? It would have been nicer of Jesus to have hung around till his was 80 so that we could have benefited more from his teachings. Just think of all the wisdom we have missed out on! No , he knew that mere words and effort were not going to achieve his mission. Slaves to sin need someone to come along and set them free , they can just be told "take off your chains " they need they key. It's the Son that sets you free. The difficulty is that although your version is "straight forward and logical" because you have taken out the "lens of Christianity" , by the same token you have taken out any attempt to explain why jesus needed to die for the remission of sin and what the purpose of this act was.

Thus, however straightforward your version is , it excludes jesus's clear teachings on himself and his death being the new covenant. You have no clear explanation for jesus's teachings on this but still persist with the idea that "Christianity" is interpreting it falsely.

Well , at least Christianity is TRYING to offer an interpretation of what he meant . So until you come up with an alternative you hardly have the right to criticize. Your solution seems to be just ignore what Jesus himself taught on this new covenant his death was to achieve , whilst at the same time saying how important it is what Jesus taught.

I put it to you that by throwing away the "lens of Christianity" you also discard Jesus's teachings. What's more you seem to have no lens of your own.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Everyone who COMMITS SIN is the slave of sin. Such a slave does not remain in the house forever. One who is free does remain forever. One who has been made free by following the teachings of Jesus is truly free.-----------Think of one---------


So for you when Jesus says the "son sets you free" he actually means that following his teachings sets us card Jesus's teachings. What's more you seem to have no lens of your own.

"We must also ask ourselves why he said the "son sets you free" rather than "if you stop committing sin then you will set yourself free" which would have been much clearer." KM

Why must we ask ourselves that? Jesus comes right out and tells us that if you follow his teachings, you will be made free.

First he tells that following His teachings will free us:
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Then he tells us free from what:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

Then he emphasizes that what he has just shared with us will truly work:
"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

It's not like this was pulled from several completely different sources and then cobbled together. It's from a single line of thought.

"However , I have to believe that jesus was here to do more than just say 'stop committing sin' since this would just be a repetition of what people like Isaiah taught. KM

Jesus does much more than tell us "stop committing sin". He tells us why we should do it. He tells us how to do it. Those ARE the keys.

"So until you come up with an alternative you hardly have the right to criticize." KM

I've already given you an alternative. The following shows how and why He sacrificed Himself for the remission of sin:
John 15:22-24
"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. "He who hates Me hates My Father also."If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.

"Now they have no excuse for their sin." Note that there was NO EXCUSE even before he died on the cross. Note that this was true at the point that Jesus had "come and spoken to them." Note that there is NO EXCUSE now.

""He who hates Me hates My Father also." Jesus knows he is hated for speaking to them. Don't you think Jesus knows He will be killed? Don't you think Jesus knows that He is sacrificing Himself? He's basically "dead man walking." It's only a matter of when.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"We must also ask ourselves why he said the "son sets you free" rather than "if you stop committing sin then you will set yourself free" which would have been much clearer." KM

Why must we ask ourselves that? Jesus comes right out and tells us that if you follow his teachings, you will be made free.

First he tells that following His teachings s basically "dead man walking." It's only a matter of when.[/b]

"Now they have no excuse for their sin." Note that there was NO EXCUSE even before he died on the cross. Note that this was true at the point that Jesus had "come and spoken to them."

Do you know what their sin was? Jesus Christ was the promised Messiah which the Jews had prayed for and expected for centuries, yet when He arrived they called Him a liar and an agent of Satan - they rejected the Son of God Himself! The sin which "they have no excuse for" is not believing in the only begotten Son of God, despite meeting Him and hearing Him and witnessing His good works.

Do some study and you will see that your exegesis is quite wrong.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]"Now they have no excuse for their sin." Note that there was NO EXCUSE even before he died on the cross. Note that this was true at the point that Jesus had "come and spoken to them."

Do you know what their sin was? Jesus Christ was the promised Messiah which the Jews had prayed for and expected for centuries, yet when He arrived they called H ssing His good works.

Do some study and you will see that your exegesis is quite wrong.[/b]

Sounds possible. Either way, the point is the same.

You're a funny kid.

You keep saying "the book, the book, must follow the book."

Seems like there was another group 2000 years ago who were preoccupied with "the book".

Look in your heart. What you really need to know is already written there. To be able to read it, you'll need to get your ego out of the way. I hope you manage to do so.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"We must also ask ourselves why he said the "son sets you free" rather than "if you stop committing sin then you will set yourself free" which would have been much clearer." KM

Why must we ask ourselves that? Jesus comes right out and tells us that if you follow his teachings, you will be made free.

First he tells that following His teachings ...[text shortened]... s basically "dead man walking." It's only a matter of when.[/b]

First he tells that following His teachings will free us:
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Then he tells us free from what:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

Then he emphasizes that what he has just shared with us will truly work:
"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

How does following Christ's teachings set one free? Do you know?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Sounds possible. Either way, the point is the same.

You're a funny kid.

You keep saying "the book, the book, must follow the book."

Seems like there was another group 2000 years ago who were preoccupied with "the book".

Look in your heart. What you really need to know is already written there. To be able to read it, you'll need to get your ego out of the way. I hope you manage to do so.

Sounds possible. Either way, the point is the same.

Your point remains the same, yes, but the scripture which you quote doesn't support it. You said John 15:22-24 shows how and why Christ sacrificed Himself for the remission of sin, but it really doesn't.

----------

You keep saying "the book, the book, must follow the book."

Thanks! This is good to hear! 😀

If the Pharisees trusted the Torah and the Prophets about the coming Messiah, and knew what to look for, then they would not have rejected the Messiah. Christ held them responsible for not knowing what the scriptures said about Him.

And He will hold us responsible for not understanding the scriptures, too. Especially if we teach others false doctrines and thereby lead people astray. Knowing scripture is tantamount.

I know you wanted to insult me, but you really blessed me. Thank you!

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Sounds possible. Either way, the point is the same.

Your point remains the same, yes, but the scripture which you quote doesn't support it. You said John 15:22-24 shows how and why Christ sacrificed Himself for the remission of sin, but it really doesn't.

----------

You keep saying "the book, the book, must follow the book."

Th ...[text shortened]... ure is tantamount.

I know you wanted to insult me, but you really blessed me. Thank you![/b]

Like I keep telling you:
I'd like to have a discussion with you, but as I pointed out earlier, you seem incapable of doing so at this time in your life.

So, please stop interrupting while the adults are talking.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Like I keep telling you:
I'd like to have a discussion with you, but as I pointed out earlier, you seem incapable of doing so at this time in your life.

So, please stop interrupting while the adults are talking.

Your petty insults mean nothing to me, sir. Zero.

Just... answer... the... question.

How does following Christ's teachings set one free? Do you know?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Your petty insults mean nothing to me, sir. Zero.

Just... answer... the... question.

How does following Christ's teachings set one free? Do you know?

What part of the following don't you understand?
I'd like to have a discussion with you, but as I pointed out earlier, you seem incapable of doing so at this time in your life.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
What part of the following don't you understand?
I'd like to have a discussion with you, but as I pointed out earlier, you seem incapable of doing so at this time in your life.

How does following Christ's teachings set one free? Do you know?

Originally posted by ballsofsteel
How does following Christ's teachings set one free? Do you know?

Good one 🙂

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"We must also ask ourselves why he said the "son sets you free" rather than "if you stop committing sin then you will set yourself free" which would have been much clearer." KM

Why must we ask ourselves that? Jesus comes right out and tells us that if you follow his teachings, you will be made free.

First he tells that following His teachings s basically "dead man walking." It's only a matter of when.[/b]

Why must we ask ourselves that? Jesus comes right out and tells us that if you follow his teachings, you will be made free.

First he tells that following His teachings will free us:
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Then he tells us free from what:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."

Then he emphasizes that what he has just shared with us will truly work:
"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

---------think of one--------------------

I agree , the son sets us free because we continue in his word. Notice that he says "if you CONTINUE in my Word.....you WILL know the truth and the truth WILL ......you WILL be free indeed" . He uses words that point to the future and his future teachings as well as his present teachings. What we know for sure was that at this point he still had plenty more to say about himself and a mission to complete (new covenant) . He also says that the "son sets us free" How? Via his teachings on himself as well as his teachings about sin. The "son sets you free" means precisely that . He sets us free personally by his presence and him living in us. You already accept that his teachings INCLUDE what he said about himself , his death , and the shedding of his blood for sin. Therefore , it's wholly reasonable to think that it's his sacrifice for our sin(as refered to by Jesus via Isaiah's prophecy) which sets us free. The son himself sets us free and not us. It is to be a work of grace , which we receive. Jesus did not say "you don't need me or my power living within you to be set free , just do it yourself".

At the point in time when this passage is set jesus's teachings are not complete which is why they are to "continue in his word". Later on he says "I have much more to tell you , more than you can bear" . He also says that the truth about him is to be revealed by the Spirit. Why don't you ask the living Christ , present with you via the Holy Spirit to guide you in the truth? This is afterall , one of Jesus's teachings.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"We must also ask ourselves why he said the "son sets you free" rather than "if you stop committing sin then you will set yourself free" which would have been much clearer." KM

Why must we ask ourselves that? Jesus comes right out and tells us that if you follow his teachings, you will be made free.

First he tells that following His teachings ...[text shortened]... s basically "dead man walking." It's only a matter of when.[/b]

"Now they have no excuse for their sin." Note that there was NO EXCUSE even before he died on the cross. Note that this was true at the point that Jesus had "come and spoken to them." Note that there is NO EXCUSE now.

""He who hates Me hates My Father also." Jesus knows he is hated for speaking to them. Don't you think Jesus knows He will be killed? Don't you think Jesus knows that He is sacrificing Himself? He's basically "dead man walking." It's only a matter of when.
-----------think of one-----------

But how does any of this explain why he needed to become the lamb of God whose blood is shed for the remission of sins? What is he sacrificing himself for? What is the new covenant with man? Jesus clearly has a mission to perform that requires his death and sacrifice and notrhing else. What is that mission?

Everything about what he did on the cross points towards reconciliation between God and man and forgiveness of sin whereas your "version" talks of more condemnation and judgement. If his sacrifice was to show that there is "NO EXCUSE" for sin and you have already said that this was true before he died then what is the point of him dying? Isn't this just incoherent ?