The truth will make you free

Originally posted by knightmeister
Why must we ask ourselves that? Jesus comes right out and tells us that if you follow his teachings, you will be made free.

First he tells that following His teachings will free us:
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Then he tells us free from what ...[text shortened]... to guide you in the truth? This is afterall , one of Jesus's teachings.

Setting aside some quibbles, what you've presented here seems possible.

However, several problems remain:
1) "Christianity" would leave us to believe that one can be "saved from sin", yet continue sinning. Not only is this illogical, so far as I know, Jesus doesn't state this.

2) Jesus does however state "...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever...". This supports the idea that one who is "saved from sin", does not continue sinning. This is logical and IS stated by Jesus. As is "Depart from me, you who work iniquity". As is ""I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way." And so on.

3) Jesus emphasizes time and again that we are to care for our fellow man. Sinning can only undermine this. The idea of an eternal "get out of jail free" card can only undermine this. The vast majority of "Christians" do NOT overcome their desire to sin. Most don't even give it more than a token attempt.

Look at George W. He calls himself "Christian". I believe he really thinks he's following Jesus. A lot of Christians see him as Christian. However, I think of the teachings of Jesus and look at George W. and I find it hard to believe that Jesus is thinking "Now that's what I'm talking about".

Originally posted by knightmeister
"Now they have no excuse for their sin." Note that there was NO EXCUSE even before he died on the cross. Note that this was true at the point that Jesus had "come and spoken to them." Note that there is NO EXCUSE now.

""He who hates Me hates My Father also." Jesus knows he is hated for speaking to them. Don't you think Jesus knows He will be killed ...[text shortened]... fore he died then what is the point of him dying? Isn't this just incoherent ?

So far as I know, prior to Jesus, the covenant with man was largely a relationship based on fear. The covenant with man allowed for animal sacrifice to atone for sin.

Jesus changed this. He promoted a relationship based on love. From what I've seen, he also promoted man taking responsibility for his own sin. Making man responsible for his own sin would logically work toward the remission of sin. The penalty for promoting such things was death. They carried out this penalty. What makes this incoherent? What he did and said carried a penalty of death.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Setting aside some quibbles, what you've presented here seems possible.

However, several problems remain:
1) "Christianity" would leave us to believe that one can be "saved from sin", yet continue sinning. Not only is this illogical, so far as I know, Jesus doesn't state this.

2) Jesus does however state "...everyone who commits sin is the slave o believe that Jesus is thinking "Now that's what I'm talking about".

2) Jesus does however state "...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever...". This supports the idea that one who is "saved from sin", does not continue sinning. This is logical and IS stated by Jesus. As is "Depart from me, you who work iniquity". As is ""I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way." And so on.

----think of one-------

But you missed out the bit where jesus tells us how we are to set free from slavery to sin....he says "the son will set you free" (his words) , therefore is is he that will set us free ultimately. He tells us how that will happen - a new covenant via his death and the indwelling of his very person in us. (" if you remain in me , then I will remain in you ...." ) Do you deny that jesus taught that he would live in us via the Holy Spirit? When he says the "son will set you free" ...he means
exactly that , nothing less nothing more. I take him at his word and believe it is Him that is setting me free by empowering me to follow his teachings. You don't take him at his word and think it is you (and you only) who will set yourself free by following the teachings he has laid down.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
So far as I know, prior to Jesus, the covenant with man was largely a relationship based on fear. The covenant with man allowed for animal sacrifice to atone for sin.

Jesus changed this. He promoted a relationship based on love. From what I've seen, he also promoted man taking responsibility for his own sin. Making man responsible for his own sin would ...[text shortened]... out this penalty. What makes this incoherent? What he did and said carried a penalty of death.

Making man responsible for his own sin would logically work toward the remission of sin.------think of one-----------

No it wouldn't in jewish theology. God is holy and perfect thus even a man that only ever committed one sin in his whole live becomes unacceptable in the eyes of God. Man's righteousness can never reach God because "all have fallen short" . Note how in passover symbolism it has to be the 'right' lamb and a worthy sacrifice , not just any old lamb , also link this to how Jesus spoke about himself as being "without sin". He was to be the lamb of God and it was this symbolism that he directly and explicitly bought into. What was he playing at?

FROM http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/passover.html..........

"The festival of the Passover has been celebrated by Jews for thousands of years. It is the retelling of the great story of how God redeemed the Jewish nation from enslavement in Egypt.1 The celebration itself was given to the Jews while they were still in Egypt.2 The original celebration centered around the Passover lamb, which was sacrificed and its blood put over the doorposts as a sign of faith, so that the Lord passed over the houses of the Jews during the last plague poured out on the Egyptians - the killing of every firstborn.3 To a large degree, the Passover lamb has been eliminated from the Passover festival (with the only remnant being the roasted lamb shank bone).4 The New Testament says that Jesus is our sacrificial Lamb.5 The Passover lamb was to be a "male without defect,"6 which is the same description given to Jesus.7 In addition, when the lamb was roasted and eaten, none of its bones were to be broken.8 This fact was also prophesized for the Messiah, whose bones were not to be broken.9 It was customary during crucifixion to break the leg bones of the person after a few hours in order to hasten their death. The only way a person could breathe when hanging on a cross was to push up with his legs, which was very exhausting. By breaking the legs, death followed soon by asphyxiation. However, in the case of Jesus, they broke the legs of the other two men, but did not break His, since He was already dead.10

Passover symbolismMuch of the symbolism of Jesus' last Passover week is lost to us because we are unaware of the customs of the time. For example, Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem five days before the lamb was killed in the temple as the Passover sacrifice for the sins of the people of Israel. Five days before the lamb was to be sacrificed, it was chosen. Therefore, Jesus entered Jerusalem on lamb selection day as the lamb of God.11 The people did not understand the significance of this, since they greeted Him with palm branches12 and hailed Him as King,13 shouting "Hosanna,"14 which means "save us." However, they were not looking for a spiritual Savior, but a political savior. Palm branches were a symbol of freedom and defiance, since Simon Maccabeus had entered Jerusalem with that symbolism.15 Jesus' reaction was to weep,16 since He realized that they did not understand the Messiah's purpose in coming.

Passover sacrificeGood Friday was the day of the Passover celebration and the day that the Passover lamb was to be sacrificed. For the previous 1,200 years, the priest would blow the shophar (ram's horn) at 3:00 p.m. - the moment the lamb was sacrificed, and all the people would pause to contemplate the sacrifice for sins on behalf of the people of Israel. On Good Friday at 3:00,17 when Jesus was being crucified, He said, "It is finished"18 - at the moment that the Passover lamb was sacrificed and the shophar was blown from the Temple. The sacrifice of the lamb of God was fulfilled at the hour that the symbolic animal sacrifice usually took place. At the same time, the veil of the Temple (a three-inch thick, several story high cloth that demarked the Holy of Holies19) tore from top to bottom20 - representing a removal of the separation between God and man. Fifty days later, on the anniversary of the giving of the law (Pentecost), God left the earthly temple to inhabit those who call on the name of Jesus through His Holy Spirit."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Setting aside some quibbles, what you've presented here seems possible.

However, several problems remain:
1) "Christianity" would leave us to believe that one can be "saved from sin", yet continue sinning. Not only is this illogical, so far as I know, Jesus doesn't state this.

2) Jesus does however state "...everyone who commits sin is the slave ...[text shortened]... o believe that Jesus is thinking "Now that's what I'm talking about".

Look at George W. He calls himself "Christian". I believe he really thinks he's following Jesus. A lot of Christians see him as Christian. However, I think of the teachings of Jesus and look at George W. and I find it hard to believe that Jesus is thinking "Now that's what I'm talking about".
THINK OF ONE-----------

Talk about preaching to the converted! I couldn't agree more. Whilst it's not my place to judge George , nor am I able to do so, I would say that what he represents is a travesty of Christian faith.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Setting aside some quibbles, what you've presented here seems possible.

However, several problems remain:
1) "Christianity" would leave us to believe that one can be "saved from sin", yet continue sinning. Not only is this illogical, so far as I know, Jesus doesn't state this.

2) Jesus does however state "...everyone who commits sin is the slave o believe that Jesus is thinking "Now that's what I'm talking about".

Jesus emphasizes time and again that we are to care for our fellow man. Sinning can only undermine this. The idea of an eternal "get out of jail free" card can only undermine this.---think of one-----

And yet Jesus DID teach that if we confess our sins we will be forgiven and that he was to be the lamb of God whose blood was to be "shed for remission (forgiveness) of sin". HE said it , not me. Maybe he was a fool to undermine himself like that? ( I don't think)

It seems clear to me that you are unable to really reconcile the two halves of Jesus's teaching. There's the bit where he is tough and uncompromising and stern about sin , but then there is also the bit where his immense compassion drives him to sacrifice himself as the lamb of God . Confusing isn't it?

Originally posted by knightmeister
2) Jesus does however state "...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever...". This supports the idea that one who is "saved from sin", does not continue sinning. This is logical and IS stated by Jesus. As is "Depart from me, you who work iniquity". As is ""I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you wi ...[text shortened]... ou only) who will set yourself free by following the teachings he has laid down.

We can discuss the mechanism later if you like.

For now, I'd like to focus on the point I'm trying to make. It seems there are two choices. I believe the second to be true. Which do you believe?

1) One can be "saved from sin", yet continue sinning.

2) One who is "saved from sin", does not continue sinning.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Making man responsible for his own sin would logically work toward the remission of sin.------think of one-----------

No it wouldn't in jewish theology. God is holy and perfect thus even a man that only ever committed one sin in his whole live becomes unacceptable in the eyes of God. Man's righteousness can never reach God because "all have fallen s ...[text shortened]... e to inhabit those who call on the name of Jesus through His Holy Spirit."

When I wrote this, I meant remission in the sense of 'abatement'.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Setting aside some quibbles, what you've presented here seems possible.

However, several problems remain:
1) "Christianity" would leave us to believe that one can be "saved from sin", yet continue sinning. Not only is this illogical, so far as I know, Jesus doesn't state this.

2) Jesus does however state "...everyone who commits sin is the slave ...[text shortened]... o believe that Jesus is thinking "Now that's what I'm talking about".

Jesus does however state "...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever...". This supports the idea that one who is "saved from sin", does not continue sinning. ----think of one------

You miss the point here. Jesus's death saves us from the penalty of sin. Sin actually means (separation from God). He takes the penalty and separation on his shoulders as the Lamb of God.

Have you never wondered why jesus said "My God , my God why hast thou forsaken me?" It's because at that point the father is placing the sin of all of us on him and for the first time he is experiencing what it is to be out of fellowship with God , separated from his own father. This opens the door to love and assurance because we don't have to fear for our relationship with God when we stumble or fall or lapse into sin , God is faithful to us despite our failings. However , you are quite right to point out that we must not lapse into complacency , but we must also not lapse into fear and lack of assurance.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
When I wrote this, I meant remission in the sense of 'abatement'.

But the absolute key to this is not what YOU meant by it but what Jesus meant by it. The rod you have created for your own back is that you place a lot of emphasis on what Jesus said in quite some detail. This means that if you are committed to playing fair then you can hardly back away from jesus's other teachings about the new covenant and what his death is to achieve. Thus what you mean by "remission" is ....well....not relevant...do you dare to explore what Jesus meant by it?

My suspicion is that you will find that his meaning links directly into his teachings on his death fulfilling prophecy and the meaning of the passover. Infact , if it didn't Jesus could really be said to be highly confused and missleading.

Originally posted by knightmeister
But the absolute key to this is not what YOU meant by it but what Jesus meant by it. The rod you have created for your own back is that you place a lot of emphasis on what Jesus said in quite some detail. This means that if you are committed to playing fair then you can hardly back away from jesus's other teachings about the new covenant and what his d ...[text shortened]... ver. Infact , if it didn't Jesus could really be said to be highly confused and missleading.

Back up to my post just before this one. Care to answer that question?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
We can discuss the mechanism later if you like.

For now, I'd like to focus on the point I'm trying to make. It seems there are two choices. I believe the second to be true. Which do you believe?

1) One can be "saved from sin", yet continue sinning.

2) One who is "saved from sin", does not continue sinning.

I believe 1) because even though I am committed to eradicating sin I find it still creeps up on me and wins out sometimes. For example , I love my children and am commmitted to treating them well , but I can't say that I never ever lose my temper with them nor can I guarantee that it will never , ever happen. If jesus is then to turn round to me and tell me to depart from him because of this then I'm not sure I want to be in heaven anyway if it's so harsh and judgemental a place. I believe that jesus knows I am made of dust and understands that I screw up from time to time. I confess this and then he picks me up and forgives me and I try to do better next time. What empowers me is the unconditional love and understanding of God and his assurance that he's not watching my every move waiting to condemn me of my sin. This is the message of the cross and with it I can both take sin seriously but also realise that God is also immensly patient with me , as I would expect a perfect father to be.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Back up to my post just before this one. Care to answer that question?

Think of one , what is your motivation for pursuing this in this way? Do you really want to understand who the living christ is and what his death has done for you? I 'm guessing you just percieve that my attempts to argue my points are motivated by ego or a defence of the "carry on sinning , it won't matter anyway" position.

I believe (and this is my motivation) that the Holy Spirit is working in the background here causing you to find out more about the part of Jesus you don't know or understand. Given time it will be revealed to you , but do you want to go there?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I believe 1) because even though I am committed to eradicating sin I find it still creeps up on me and wins out sometimes. For example , I love my children and am commmitted to treating them well , but I can't say that I never ever lose my temper with them nor can I guarantee that it will never , ever happen. If jesus is then to turn round to me and t ...[text shortened]... ealise that God is also immensly patient with me , as I would expect a perfect father to be.

The following contradict what you believe:
"...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever...".

"Depart from me, you who work iniquity".

"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."

Picture your belief system as a box. It seems like you put the teachings of "Christianity" in first and fit the teachings of Jesus in as best you can instead of putting the teachings of Jesus in first and discarding what conflicts with the teachings of Jesus.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The following contradict what you believe:
"...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever...".

"Depart from me, you who work iniquity".

"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way."

Picture your belief system as a box. It seems like you put the teachings of "Chri ...[text shortened]... e teachings of Jesus in first and discarding what conflicts with the teachings of Jesus.

Picture your belief system as a box. It seems like you put the teachings of "Christianity" in first and fit the teachings of Jesus in as best you can instead of putting the teachings of Jesus in first and discarding what conflicts with the teachings of Jesus.

-----------think of one-----------

Jesus's teachings are in conflict anyway whether one looks through your "lens of christianity" or not. Jesus did teach all those things you say he taught , but you argue as if it stopped there ...it didn't. It's tough going making sense of it. It's easy for you because you just dump everything jesus said about his death , about him being the lamb of God , about him achieving a new covenant and his blood being shed for our sins into the "ritual" basket and then sideline it to simplify it all.

I cannot afford this luxury and I have the task of embracing his teachings on repentance and sin and trying to reconcile them with his death and sacrifice and his compassion. You do not seem to think you have a problem at all to deal with. This superficially makes my position look weaker but infact it is not because I accept there is a problem. Are you going to continue to quote 2 or 3 passages incessantly or are you going to look at the overall picture?

For example , at first , you sidelined the last supper and communion as a ritual thing or something. However , further thought on this would reveal that if Jesus was to share a final meal during passover with his followers and instruct them on how he is to be remembered then this can hardly be said to be a meaningless ritual can it? If you are honest with yourself you will realise that he is stating something very important here. This is his last request to the disciples. For a jew to be talking about himself using these symbols during a passover meal is highly significant. I don't think you realise this.