06 Nov 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterHow's it going, KM?
I really don't think that Jesus contradicts Himself at all. I do however think that "Christianity's" interpretation does contradict Jesus.
--------thinkofone--------
You still see no need to hold yourself to logic and play with unloaded dice. I understand that it would be very hard for you to accept that what Jesus was saying about his death coin ...[text shortened]... y whether you ever sin and whether you are always 100% compassionate and Christlike.
06 Nov 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYou spend a lot of time asking questions like "Do you believe in hell?" or "Have you completely overcome sin?" that have nothing to do with the question. ---think of one-----------
I've stated my position and have shown verses where Jesus supports my position. If anything I keep waiting for you to address the matter at hand which is:
"Where does Jesus say that 'eternal life' is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome?"
You spend a lot of time asking questions like "Do you believe in hell?" or "Have you complete ...[text shortened]... orever..."
My point is made. I keep waiting for you to show otherwise.[/b]
So when I ask you have you completely overcome sin you cannot answer? How long does it take to type 2-3 letters (Yes/no)?
06 Nov 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasSlowly I guess. The main block is his inability to reconcile some of the things that Jesus says. Those passages he quotes obviously mean something to him in a different way that we hear them. It could be read as if jesus is saying that sin must be totally eradicated in order to be saved , but there are other ways of looking at it as you will know. The main impasse is that he does not (will not?) see the problem presented by jesus's other teachings on himself. He's got his teeth firmly stuck into his position because salavtion by grace seems abhorent to him.
How's it going, KM?
What is your take on the "slaves of sin " and "depart from me passages"?
06 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneHow much of this do you agree with ThinkofOne?
I've stated my position and have shown verses where Jesus supports my position. If anything I keep waiting for you to address the matter at hand which is:
"Where does Jesus say that 'eternal life' is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome?"
You spend a lot of time asking questions like "Do you believe in hell?" or "Have you complete orever..."
My point is made. I keep waiting for you to show otherwise.[/b]
This is what the Savior said in Matthew 7:23. In v.22 people have prophesied in the name of the Master, have actually cast out devilsand done many wonderful works. How can it be the Master will say to these people "I never knew you. Depart from me you that work iniquity." What was this iniquity they were doing? Where did they go
wrong? They still were not doing the will of the Father (v.21).
Let's examine this further.
The Savior then said in effect "Whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, will have a rock solid foundation for eternal life (v.24)." It appears the problem lies in the doing. What were these "sayings of mine" just previous to His warning? We need to closely examine how we stack up against the qualities the Savior says we, his people, are to have; or we, individually, won't be His people!
"His sayings" started in Matthew 5 in what is commonly known as the Beatitudes. Yahshua (I will use his hebrew name here) says blessings
will be on those who are "poor in spirit". Ps 51:17 explains this well, "the sacrifices of Elohiym (hebrew for "the Mighty Ones" ) are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart, O Elohiym, you will not
despise." (See also Matthew 18:3-4 and Luke 18:13-14).
Blessed also are "those who mourn." Those who see the sufferings of this world and cry out to our Father "Thy Kingdom come! Thy will be
done on earth as it is in heaven (Matthew 6:10)!
Blessed are those who are "meek". Meekness is associated with a quiet spirit and a trusting attitude in our Father (1 Peter 3:4-5).
Blessed are "they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness." They hate sin, in themselves and in the world. They strive to overcome (Romans 12:21). The Messiah (The Anointed One) pointed out the importance of striving to rid ourselves of attitudes of sin in our heart which is just as bad as the physical act.
Blessed are those who are "merciful", "pure in heart" and are "peacemakers." Blessed are those "which are persecuted" for doing and standing up for what is right, whether from the world or even our own organizations (Matthew 5:7-11). In regard to those who count themselves as our enemy, we find our Master says in Matthew 5:44 that we are to love, bless, do good and pray for them. Romans Chap. 12 goes along with the Beatitudes.
The good works that we are to do and the attitude
we are to accomplish them in, must reflect the attitude our Savior showed us while He was here on earth. We must want others to praise our Father,
not ourselves (Matthew 6:1). It is to Him the praises and thanksgivings are to go (Matthew 5:16).
He is the One who is good and from whom all blessings come. That is why, whether in alms giving, in private prayer or in fastings it should be done in secret (Matthew 6:2-4). If we do it so other men can see "our spirituality", then we set up men as our idols, against the second Commandment! In our inner self we must understand as the apostle Paul did, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing... (Romans 7:18)."
What our Father is looking for is a heart that fears Him and keeps all His Commandments, not just in the letter, but in the spirit (Deut. 5:29 and 1 John 5:3). The problem with the Scribes and Pharisee's was that they were strictly legalistic. They were missing real justice by leaving out mercy and faith (Matthew 23:23). Now, in our dealings with others we are to use the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians5:22-23).
We are not to judge in a condemning sense (to
discern is a different issue) (Matthew 7:1-5). We individually will stand before our Judge who will judge whether we are a sheep or a goat (Matthew
25:33).
In an area where many fall short, we also are to watch out for false prophets (Matthew 7:15-20). These false prophets or shepherds can look and sound good! But in their hearts and deeds they are not truly representing the Savior. They are mainly looking out for themselves and their vested interests. If you belong to an organization, do you see true meekness, or carnal political jousting and in-fighting in your spiritual guides? Are you, am I, even watching for this? Our Savior says we should! The Scriptures are full of warnings about them. And, what to do about it (Matthew 18:15-17).
This is, in essence, the "sayings of mine" (Matthew 7:24) and the strait gate and the narrow way which leads to life (v. 13-14). In our acts of serving others in various capacities and talents, let us remember to have the mind and attitude of Yahshua our Savior. "A new commandment I give unto you, that you love one another, *as* I have loved you, that you also love one another. *By this* shall all men know
that you are my disciples, *if* you have love one to another" (John 13:34-35).
By James R. Steinle
06 Nov 07
1 edit
This thread is devolving into almost complete futility. The very first post where ThinkOfOne refutes "cheap grace" is spot on: "many seem to believe that by merely professing a "belief" in Jesus, eternal life is gained. That it doesn't matter if they continue to sin." Amen! "Cheap grace" is an ugly thing, and ThinkOfOne is right to detest it. "Cheap grace" is that which tells a person that they can go on living their lives as before and simply comfort themselves with the knowledge of "savedness." Cheap grace kills discipleship.
But costly grace is inseparable from discipleship, as Nemesio pointed out. However, Nemesio also argues against a definite historical point wherein such grace is received, insisting that such a defining moment cannot be known and must be demonstrated instead by the way one lives their life. There is much truth in this, but in at least one sense it is contrary to scripture which attests to the fact that repentance (i.e., turning from a life of sin forever) and reception of the Holy Spirit by faith do indeed confer a measure of assurance to a believer. Whodey, KM and I have fought to keep this transformational aspect of faith alive because it is well-represented in scripture and because of our first-hand experience with it. We have sought to keep faith in the forefront of the discussion, not as a means of excusing sin nor using faith in the "cheap grace" sense as a ballast against submission to the sanctification of discipleship and the renunciation of our desires and the world, but instead to fend off the dangerous implication of a completely works-based idea of salvation, as a rule.
ThinkOfOne admirably represents Christ's uncomfortable and difficult call to complete renunciation of oneself and a life of sin, with the implication that some very difficult work and much striving are to be involved -- all of which is keenly insightful and true. Many Christians would do well to heed the call on their lives to give up all and follow Jesus. However, ThinkOfOne's message is marred by his insistence that Christians should be completely sin-free, almost as if holiness were the prerequisite for salvation. KM has labored valiantly to divest ThinkOfOne of this error, and ThinkOfOne has consistently mistaken KM's declaration that "a sinless life is impossible" as a declaration of cheap grace. This only shows that ThinkOfOne, although quite familiar with Christ's call to holiness and good works, is quite unfamiliar with actual discipleship at Christ's feet.
Does a disciple who falls into sin fear for his salvation? No, as Luther once said, he "sins boldly." That is, he knows that he is a sinner and that he cannot be anything other than a sinner, so when he falls into sin he doesn't worry the least bit about losing grace, instead he repents of his sin and goes on to trust the Lord even more -- he "sins boldly." A disciple of Christ strives to walk the "narrow way," putting forth every effort of his strength and will to obey Christ in every respect, as is expected by the Lord, but he is not so naive to think that he will ever be without sin in this life. Sin happens, and it is to be dealt with and the path reclaimed as soon as possible; no discouragement necessary. We are who we are.
Nobody here is advocating cheap grace, not myself or whodey, KM, Nemesio or Rajk, that much is clear. Costly grace is what everyone agrees upon; that kind of grace which requires repentance and which is wedded to discipleship. ThinkOfOne's confusion concerning the true character of discipleship and the true character of faith, and how they are interrelated, have caused this thread to go on for far too long -- far beyond its expiration date. His underscoring of the importance of Christ's call to holiness and good works, as I said, is true and spot on, but he has begun to treat his insistence on Christ's teachings as a loaded weapon which whodey, KM and I are seeking to disarm with all our talk about faith. Nothing could be further from the truth. The message of renunciation and holiness is indispensable, and ThinkOfOne is right to stress it; nobody here is seeking to preach otherwise. Instead, we have been seeking to show ThinkOfOne (as we have over and over again, albeit unsuccessfully) that faith in Jesus Christ is the one and only springboard to true discipleship, and that no one can come to true discipleship by any other manner except faith in Jesus Christ.
Renunciation of oneself without faith is an unutterably hard command to follow, impossible really; while renunciation of oneself with faith is joyful, easy, and a "light burden." This has been our experience, and it is what ThinkOfOne needs to understand, which he presently refuses to: that faith in Christ alone is essential in order to be able to follow Christ. If he refuses to acknowledge this, in spite of Christ's own words and in the face of ample scriptural evidence, then I see no reason at all to continue trying to divest him of this error, and this thread should mercifully be allowed to die.
Hopefully, though, that won't have to happen.
06 Nov 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterMost of it. How about you?
How much of this do you agree with ThinkofOne?
This is what the Savior said in Matthew 7:23. In v.22 people have prophesied in the name of the Master, have actually cast out devilsand done many wonderful works. How can it be the Master will say to these people "I never knew you. Depart from me you that work iniquity." What was this i ...[text shortened]... ne to another" (John 13:34-35).
By James R. Steinle
It's a reasonable start, although there are some weak spots such as "...a heart that fears Him...". is less strong than "...a heart that loves Him...".
What did you think of "They hate sin, in themselves and in the world..."?
06 Nov 07
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneWhat did you think of "They hate sin, in themselves and in the world..."?---thinkofone----
Most of it. How about you?
It's a reasonable start, although there are some weak spots such as "...a heart that fears Him...". is less strong than "...a heart that loves Him...".
What did you think of "They hate sin, in themselves and in the world..."?
I agree with it. I despair sometimes at the world and it's deceptions and arrogance . I also sometimes experience despair (or frustration) with myself. Just when I think I have thrown off my arrogance I find myself caught unwittingly by stray , pompous thoughts like " I'm much further on than him " or " if only she was more humble" , only to realise that God's searchlight will track down my subtle patronising and convict me once again of my own sin. I become aware via his spirit of the plank in my very own eye that is so stubborn and this brings me to greater humility because I see that I will always need Christ's covering sacrifice. Even then I find something deep down inside that wants me say to myself " look at me and how humble I am!"
I am dependent on him for being able to approach God because my sin runs deep , even when my heart is committed I fail here and there , it's the stuff I am made of. I can improve and live a good life and learn the way of love and I can try to be perfect but I will still know that this is unlikely. I know that God discerns the difference between any wilful sins and sin that just happens , he sees my heart.
BTW - I would still like to know whether you believe that Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit was to live in us and be with us and guide us in all truth?
06 Nov 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterI often despair at the world. The attitudes of "Christianity" is a part of that. I have no reason to believe that He thought man incapable of overcoming sin which seems to be the prevailing attitude of the vast majority of "Christians". In fact, I have to believe that it's His expectation.
What did you think of "They hate sin, in themselves and in the world..."?---thinkofone----
I agree with it. I despair sometimes at the world and it's deceptions and arrogance . I also sometimes experience despair (or frustration) with myself. Just when I think I have thrown off my arrogance I find myself caught unwittingly by stray , pompous though ...[text shortened]... ht that the Holy Spirit was to live in us and be with us and guide us in all truth?
Why wouldn't I think that Jesus taught that?
But I'm guessing that that's not really the question you wanted to ask. I'm sure I told you a while ago that I believe that we all have a voice that guides us to truth, though I think it's a quiet voice. Most people are too wrapped up the world and their own desires to hear it.
07 Nov 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneBut I'm guessing that that's not really the question you wanted to ask. I'm sure I told you a while ago that I believe that we all have a voice that guides us to truth, though I think it's a quiet voice. Most people are too wrapped up the world and their own desires to hear it.
I often despair at the world. The attitudes of "Christianity" is a part of that. I have no reason to believe that He thought man incapable of overcoming sin which seems to be the prevailing attitude of the vast majority of "Christians". In fact, I have to believe that it's His expectation.
Why wouldn't I think that Jesus taught that?
But I'm gues ...[text shortened]... uiet voice. Most people are too wrapped up the world and their own desires to hear it.
---think of one-----
And that voice is rooted in the Holy Spirit that Jesus spoke of , agree? He did say that the Holy Spirit was to "guide us in all truth". Or is that just my interpretation?
07 Nov 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThe attitudes of "Christianity" is a part of that. I have no reason to believe that He thought man incapable of overcoming sin which seems to be the prevailing attitude of the vast majority of "Christians". In fact, I have to believe that it's His expectation.
I often despair at the world. The attitudes of "Christianity" is a part of that. I have no reason to believe that He thought man incapable of overcoming sin which seems to be the prevailing attitude of the vast majority of "Christians". In fact, I have to believe that it's His expectation.
Why wouldn't I think that Jesus taught that?
But I'm gues ...[text shortened]... uiet voice. Most people are too wrapped up the world and their own desires to hear it.
-------------think of one------------
I think that was his expectation but I interpret to mean a different kind of expectation from the one you do. I think he meant we are to strive to overcome sin 100% but to also bear in mind that provision is also made for us when we fail. This is in line with his later teachings. We must not forget that Jesus himself is on a spiritual journey and becomes more and more aware of the implications and meaning of his mission as he moves through to the end. As he gets closer to his death he talks much more about us "remaining in him" and being the lamb of God (communion) and how his death is to cover sin. His teachings take on a different dimension.
In the space of a month I will say to my children sternly that I expect of them that they don't hit each other (and I really do expect them not to), but days later I will also talk to them about how I love them and forgive them and how I understand that it's easy to lose your temper. However, this does not mean that I am giving them licence to hit again . The truth lies somewhere between expectancy , forgiveness and realism. Your problem is that you just focus on ONE aspect of Jesus's teachings and forget the other aspects. It's onesided and one dimensional. It's like that argument that says that if you try and understand terrorists and provide reasons why they do the things they do then you MUST be condoning them . You think that because I am looking at sin from the aspect of forgiveness that I am condoning it. It's just too black and white.
07 Nov 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterHow about getting off that "Or is that just my interpretation?" kick? He said what he said. He also didn't say what he didn't say. The problem is that you don't seem to make a distinction between what is stated and inferred. Either you're hiding it from me or he never actually says "'eternal life' is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome." If he did say it, show me.
But I'm guessing that that's not really the question you wanted to ask. I'm sure I told you a while ago that I believe that we all have a voice that guides us to truth, though I think it's a quiet voice. Most people are too wrapped up the world and their own desires to hear it.
---think of one-----
And that voice is rooted in the Holy Spirit that ...[text shortened]... ay that the Holy Spirit was to "guide us in all truth". Or is that just my interpretation?
07 Nov 07
Originally posted by knightmeisterDo you honestly believe that something more than a small percentage of "Christians" really try to overcome sin? Most are so wrapped up in the day-to-day world that it's never given more than a token effort. Of those who do give more than a token effort, most are like a child who scrunches up his face when he's running in an effort to convince the teacher that he's really trying.
The attitudes of "Christianity" is a part of that. I have no reason to believe that He thought man incapable of overcoming sin which seems to be the prevailing attitude of the vast majority of "Christians". In fact, I have to believe that it's His expectation.
-------------think of one------------
I think that was his expectation but I interpret ...[text shortened]... m the aspect of forgiveness that I am condoning it. It's just too black and white.
If they were really trying, they'd be doing it. There'd be a noticible difference in the morality of Christians vs. the general public. It just isn't there. The vast majority are more than satisfied believing that they have 'eternal' life and think they are feeling the joy of the love of the Lord when all the are really feeling is the joy of the love of themselves. This is a real problem. It's heart-breaking.
07 Nov 07
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneEither you're hiding it from me or he never actually says "'eternal life' is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome." If he did say it, show me.
How about getting off that "Or is that just my interpretation?" kick? He said what he said. He also didn't say what he didn't say. The problem is that you don't seem to make a distinction between what is stated and inferred. Either you're hiding it from me or he never actually says "'eternal life' is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome." If he did say it, show me.
KM, ThinkOfOne refuses to talk to me, so this one's FYI. Christ did point to a historical event in a believer's life when he or she is definitely "born again." Here is the scriptural evidence:
"Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:2-4).
------------------
After a believer is "born again" he or she becomes one of Christ's sheep; Christ says that he gives His sheep eternal life and that they shall never perish:
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:27-29).
------------------
These two passages prove that there is such a point in the life of a believer where he or she is "born again," and that the significance of being born again is that he or she "follows" Christ and is granted eternal life which cannot be lost.
Note: despite these words coming directly from Jesus, expect ThinkOfOne to utterly disregard their portent, as they challenge his tenaciously held misconceptions.
07 Nov 07
7 edits
Originally posted by epiphinehasReq'd.
[b]Either you're hiding it from me or he never actually says "'eternal life' is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome." If he did say it, show me.
KM, ThinkOfOne refuses to talk to me, so this one's FYI. Christ did point to a historical event in a believer's life when he or she is definitely "born again." Here is the scriptural e regard their portent, as they challenge his tenaciously held misconceptions.[/b]
I would just like to add that the gospel is a simple message of love, hope, and faith, but above all it is a message of love. Therefore, who or what do you love? That is the question. If you love your God above all then you will live accordingly even though at times you may stumble. If you have faith in God this is how you will live you life in large part, even though at times you may stumble. The Bible makes it plain that God probes us all by looking directly at our hearts. For example, Christ knew Peter was one of his even though he knew Peter would forsake him by denying him three times later on just before dying on the cross even though Peter seemed to have not even have known this about himself. However, Christ knew that Peter loved him despite this inherent flaw of his and that later this would be proven by how he lived his life for Christ after he left this earth. In short, there is no fooling God. He knows who are his. He knows who loves him.
07 Nov 07
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneHow about getting off that "Or is that just my interpretation?" kick? He said what he said. He also didn't say what he didn't say. The problem is that you don't seem to make a distinction between what is stated and inferred. Either you're hiding it from me or he never actually says "'eternal life' is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome." If he did say it, show me.
How about getting off that "Or is that just my interpretation?" kick? He said what he said. He also didn't say what he didn't say. The problem is that you don't seem to make a distinction between what is stated and inferred. Either you're hiding it from me or he never actually says "'eternal life' is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome." If he did say it, show me.
----thinkof one----------
But don't you see that this is where your loaded dice comes to the fore? Have a think about what you are saying , because , unfortunately what you are saying applies both ways.
Here's an example .....in the passage where he says "a slave to sin does not remain in the house forever" he very quickly afterwards says that "the Son shall set you free" . Now I can combine this with his statement "remain in me as I remain in you" . Ok , so let's apply this "He said what he said. He also didn't say what he didn't say." logic to this. I can then argue that he ACTUALLY meant that he was to live in us and that he himself was to set us free. It's done deal by your logic. No inferences or interpretations , just literal truth.
Because...erhem...he didn't say that "my teachings will set you free" or "remain in my teachings , as my teachings remain in you". He says the HE will set us free. How ? By living in us and us living in him.
Here's my problem TofOne. You don't apply your own logic against yourself as you should do to remain consistent. Jesus stated that we are to remain in him and he in us , so you tell me I should take him literally , so let's do that , but if I do this then this means that Jesus is saying more than just "follow my teachings" but " let me live in you" and I know you won't like that because it feeds in so neatly with the Holy Spirit , "this bread is my body" and all the things I have been saying about communion (which you tried earlier to dismiss as a side issue)
So I feel entitled to use your own logic against you. If Jesus clearly states that we are to live in him and he in us then I must ask do you believe this? Afterall , "he said what he said".
I'm not seeking to wind you up or get into a slanging match with you. I feel that you will not hold yourself to the same logic you expect to hold me to. Play fair thinkofone!