The truth will make you free

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Like I keep telling you: there are any number of inferences that one can draw. This is true of any situation where the intent is unknown. I understand that you want to believe that there is salvation at some point before sin is actually overcome. The problem is that Jesus clearly states otherwise. That alone renders the inference illogical.

Nowhere in ...[text shortened]... hat is that point? There's nothing that you've presented here that states what that point is.

The problem is that Jesus clearly states otherwise. That alone renders the inference illogical. --thinkofone------

In your mind this is obviously true but you are not prepared to consider other ways of looking at it.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Like I keep telling you: there are any number of inferences that one can draw. This is true of any situation where the intent is unknown. I understand that you want to believe that there is salvation at some point before sin is actually overcome. The problem is that Jesus clearly states otherwise. That alone renders the inference illogical.

Nowhere in hat is that point? There's nothing that you've presented here that states what that point is.

If salvation is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome, what is that point? There's nothing that you've presented here that states what that point is.-----think of one--------

The point is that sin can only be overcome because of salvation. Unless jesus comes and enters us and empowers us via the Holy Spirit we will have no chance of overcoming sin. It's like the bone marrow analogy. Once he has received the transplant he will recover , it's just a matter of time , the recovery comes AFTER the operation. It's later on that we see the effects of the operation. Jesus is the operation ("the son will set you free" ). And you ask what's the point of the operation?

You get the cart before the horse every time. It's like asking what's the point of giving him an operation before he has fully recovered? Answer- If he doesn't have the operation he can't recover. A slave to sin is in bondage to sin , someone needs to come along and set him free.

(BTW- Have you completely overcome sin?)

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]Like I keep telling you: there are any number of inferences that one can draw. This is true of any situation where the intent is unknown. I understand that you want to believe that there is salvation at some point before sin is actually overcome. The problem is that Jesus clearly states otherwise. That alone renders the inference illogical.

Nowhere in hat is that point? There's nothing that you've presented here that states what that point is.[/b)

Like I keep telling you: there are any number of inferences that one can draw. This is true of any situation where the intent is unknown

----think of one--------------

Oh no you don't! I can't let you get away from this one I 'm afraid. There are any number of inferences you can draw if you like but Jesus's intent is much clearer than you realise. The real question is which inference is the most overwhelmingly likely one.

1) We can say for certain that he intended to be the fulfillment of prophecy and that his mission was revealed to Isaiah years before . Why? because he said so.

2) We know that he was very well versed in scripture and was very aware of Jewish Theology and all that it entails. Why? Because he demonstrated it.

3) We know that he explicitly linked the shedding of his own blood to the passover (which links directly into Isaiah) why? Because he said so.

4) We know that he was also very aware of how he was seen by his disciples and took time to ask them who he thought he was. He was highly intelligent and would have known how his words would have sounded to a jewish audience. He understood the role of context and tradition.

Now , we must ask ourselves this. If Jesus didn't intend for him to be linked directly to Isaiah and his prophecy and for himself to be seen as the lamb of God who is slain for remission of sin then. ...erhem. ..what the %"£^ is he playing at!!!!!!!! He bungled it at the last minute and lead everyone down completely the wrong path . Why didn't his Father tell him to stop being so misleading? Didn't he stop to think about what he was saying ? You are asking me to believe Jesus wasn't shrewd enough to suss out what might happen...doh!

As if Jesus would now say " oh no , what an idiot I was , I didn't mean
it like that ....you mean you actually thought I was the prophesised Messiah? Oh , if only I had known!!! Isaiah? I was only having you on boys...(winks) I honestly didn't realise when we had that supper that it was passover , why didn't you say something!!? "

Now , think about it , this was the son of the living God who knew peoples thoughts and performed miracles. What he intended can be known both by what he said and the person of his charactor. If he refered to prophecy and scripture and symbolism then that is what he meant. It's inconsistent to suggest he could be that sloppy and careless about an issue like this.

The real question is not what inferences "one might draw" but what inferences would Jesus have been expecting from his audience. He knew the context you see. It's unthinkable to consider that he might have intended any other parallel to be made.

The combination of Jesus's character and the known religious context of the day means he must have been intending for us to believe he was setting up a new covenant via his death for the covering of sin. Any other explanation requires us to believe jesus is stupid , devious or just plain naive (and if he is any of these things then why believe anything he says including all the things you quote from him?)

You ask us to take him at his word all the time like a broken record but then when he says something you don't like you fudge the issue. You always play with loaded dice.

(BTW- I've still no idea why this is bold , I give up LOL)

Originally posted by knightmeister
Like I keep telling you: there are any number of inferences that one can draw. This is true of any situation where the intent is unknown

----think of one--------------

Oh no you don't! I can't let you get away from this one I 'm afraid. There are any number of inferences you can draw if you like but Jesus's intent is much clearer than you reali ...[text shortened]... loaded dice.

(BTW- I've still no idea why this is bold , I give up LOL)

Based on your responses, it seems that you have misunderstood my previous post. Please re-read it. Maybe it would help if you considered the post as a whole instead of breaking it up into pieces.

To get rid of unwanted bold characters, simply edit your post and add an "end bold" character string (/b in brackets) at the beginning of your post. Your post is being affected by the preceding "Originally posted by" box. This happens when the "Originally posted by" box is missing an "end bold" character string. The same situation can occur for italics.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Based on your responses, it seems that you have misunderstood my previous post. Please re-read it. Maybe it would help if you considered the post as a whole instead of breaking it up into pieces.

To get rid of unwanted bold characters, simply edit your post and add an "end bold" character string (/b in brackets) at the beginning of your post. Your post box is missing an "end bold" character string. The same situation can occur for italics.

So how have I misundertood? You seem to be saying that it is illogical to infer the things that I infer from Christ's words. Am I right? However , my argument is based on the premise that Jesus was highly shrewd , well read and made conscious careful choices about what he said. Not only this he was a man who intimately understood Jewish culture and understood how his words would be heard.

However, you are quite right to say that some of his words seem to contradict his mission and other sayings. So here's where we need to get logical about it do you agree?

1) We can possibly argue that either one or the other of his statements are false and were not intended to mean what they seem to mean ...or....

2) We can try to resolve the apparent conflict between the two aspects of jesus's teachings by incorporating them into a greater , larger truth that retains respect for both sides of his teachings.

Personally , I think it's more intellectually honest to try for 2) because I can't discount what Jesus says about sin , but neither can I discount about what he says about his death. There's little point in saying Jesus is actually contradicting himself as then there would be no point in following him anyway. There also seems little point in saying he was misquoted or something because then we can't trust any scripture and the whole game is off anyway.

Therefore , it seems logical to think that we need to try and find a way of resolving the two truths under a greater truth or understanding. The way to do this is to examine our own perceptions and speculate about whether the contradiction is in us and not Jesus. This seems something you are not prepared to explore because you are set on a certain view. Could it be that your "lens" makes these two truths about jesus irreconcilable in your mind ? If so start looking for a new pair of glasses. Jesus said he was to be the lamb of God whose blood was to be shed for forguiveness of sins. The ambiguity only occurs for you because you cannot recconcile the APPARENT contradiction.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Based on your responses, it seems that you have misunderstood my previous post. Please re-read it. Maybe it would help if you considered the post as a whole instead of breaking it up into pieces.

To get rid of unwanted bold characters, simply edit your post and add an "end bold" character string (/b in brackets) at the beginning of your post. Your post ...[text shortened]... box is missing an "end bold" character string. The same situation can occur for italics.

Based on your responses, it seems that you have misunderstood my previous post. Please re-read it.

T.O.O., you say this to everyone. 😴 Isn't it obvious to you by now that everyone understands your posts just fine? I'm sure not one of us here has an IQ under 130; we are more than capable of understanding you.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Based on your responses, it seems that you have misunderstood my previous post. Please re-read it.

T.O.O., you say this to everyone. 😴 Isn't it obvious to you by now that everyone understands your posts just fine? I'm sure not one of us here has an IQ under 130; we are more than capable of understanding you.[/b]

You're still such a child?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Like I keep telling you: there are any number of inferences that one can draw. This is true of any situation where the intent is unknown. I understand that you want to believe that there is salvation at some point before sin is actually overcome. The problem is that Jesus clearly states otherwise. That alone renders the inference illogical.

Nowhere in ...[text shortened]... hat is that point? There's nothing that you've presented here that states what that point is.

It sounds like your saying that god only accepts those who have overcome sin. I agree! I'm suprised this idea is resisted by Christians today, they have bought into the idea that faith in jesus will save them but why him? Its just an easy way out of having to be good and follow the rules like eveybody else on the planet, like a cult. Christians you are not special. Get over yourslevs.

Think of one, have you ever heard of bahai? I ask because that is what i believe and we don't seem very different in our ideas.

Originally posted by GitoGitoHustler
It sounds like your saying that god only accepts those who have overcome sin. I agree! I'm suprised this idea is resisted by Christians today, they have bought into the idea that faith in jesus will save them but why him? Its just an easy way out of having to be good and follow the rules like eveybody else on the planet, like a cult. Christians y ...[text shortened]... of bahai? I ask because that is what i believe and we don't seem very different in our ideas.

Christians you are not special. Get over yourslevs.

Gee, thanks. 😞

Originally posted by knightmeister
So how have I misundertood? You seem to be saying that it is illogical to infer the things that I infer from Christ's words. Am I right? However , my argument is based on the premise that Jesus was highly shrewd , well read and made conscious careful choices about what he said. Not only this he was a man who intimately understood Jewish culture and un ...[text shortened]... ambiguity only occurs for you because you cannot recconcile the APPARENT contradiction.

On your first reply post, you seem to be under the impression that I was asking "What is the point of salvation?". What I was trying to ask is, "At what point is salvation granted?".

On your second reply post, I'm not sure you realize that what I was taking issue with is the idea that "salvation is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome." I didn't see anything in the verses that you posted earlier that necessarily points to the idea that salvation would be granted before sin is actually overcome.

I really don't think that Jesus contradicts Himself at all. I do however think that "Christianity's" interpretation does contradict Jesus.

Originally posted by GitoGitoHustler
It sounds like your saying that god only accepts those who have overcome sin. I agree! I'm suprised this idea is resisted by Christians today, they have bought into the idea that faith in jesus will save them but why him? Its just an easy way out of having to be good and follow the rules like eveybody else on the planet, like a cult. Christians y ...[text shortened]... of bahai? I ask because that is what i believe and we don't seem very different in our ideas.

As a matter of fact, I am somewhat familiar with the Bahai Faith. From what I can tell, it's a belief system that coincides with my own in many ways.

Originally posted by GitoGitoHustler
It sounds like your saying that god only accepts those who have overcome sin. I agree! I'm suprised this idea is resisted by Christians today, they have bought into the idea that faith in jesus will save them but why him? Its just an easy way out of having to be good and follow the rules like eveybody else on the planet, like a cult. Christians y ...[text shortened]... of bahai? I ask because that is what i believe and we don't seem very different in our ideas.

Have you overcome sin? Are you always 100% compassionate? Are your thoughts always 100% pure? If not , then by your own argument you are not accepted by God.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
On your first reply post, you seem to be under the impression that I was asking "What is the point of salvation?". What I was trying to ask is, "At what point is salvation granted?".

On your second reply post, I'm not sure you realize that what I was taking issue with is the idea that "salvation is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome. all. I do however think that "Christianity's" interpretation does contradict Jesus.

I really don't think that Jesus contradicts Himself at all. I do however think that "Christianity's" interpretation does contradict Jesus.

--------thinkofone--------

You still see no need to hold yourself to logic and play with unloaded dice. I understand that it would be very hard for you to accept that what Jesus was saying about his death coincided with all that was said by St Paul etc but one day you may see this truth. You cannot deny that Jesus taught that "when He the spirit of truth comes he will guide you in all truth" (refering to the Holy Spirit). Jesus plainly taught that God himself would reveal the truth about him to believers. Do you accept even this truth? Is there anything that jesus said that you don't like that you are prepared to attribute to him rather than "false interpretations." ?

How is one to pin you down or get you to play by the rules? Do you just decide for yourself as you go along? It's just too easy to resort to this tactic. Is what Jesus said just a pick and mix situation for you or do you feel obliged to consider aspects of his teachings that you find hard and not just the ones you agree with.

The other thing that's happening here is that you just repeat yourself without providing an argument , which makes things frustrating. The game seems to be KM provides an argument based on scripture and knowledge of what jesus was like and ToO just keeps waffling about the lens of Christianity without providing a lens of his own. What is your interpretation of what jesus said his death was to achieve? What would it take for you to re-think your position?

BTW - I'm still waiting for you to say whether you ever sin and whether you are always 100% compassionate and Christlike.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
On your first reply post, you seem to be under the impression that I was asking "What is the point of salvation?". What I was trying to ask is, "At what point is salvation granted?".

On your second reply post, I'm not sure you realize that what I was taking issue with is the idea that "salvation is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome. all. I do however think that "Christianity's" interpretation does contradict Jesus.

Ok , a change of tack again maybe. Simple question this time.
============================================

Do you believe that Jesus taught that the Holy Spirit of God exists and was present with him and was to reveal the truth to his disciples and be present with them and in them (and us)?

============================================
("If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[3] in you.JOHN 14 +"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. JOHN 14)

Think carefully before you answer (I expect it will take a week or so anyway -no offence but you must admit you don't like answering straight questions). The reason why I say think carefully is because whatever you answer here you will need heavily weighted dice to avoid coming unstuck.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I really don't think that Jesus contradicts Himself at all. I do however think that "Christianity's" interpretation does contradict Jesus.

--------thinkofone--------

You still see no need to hold yourself to logic and play with unloaded dice. I understand that it would be very hard for you to accept that what Jesus was saying about his death coin y whether you ever sin and whether you are always 100% compassionate and Christlike.

I've stated my position and have shown verses where Jesus supports my position. If anything I keep waiting for you to address the matter at hand which is:

"Where does Jesus say that 'eternal life' is granted at some point before sin is actually overcome?"

You spend a lot of time asking questions like "Do you believe in hell?" or "Have you completely overcome sin?" that have nothing to do with the question.

I keep repeating myself in an effort to get you back on topic.

Look at what you posted from Isaiah:
Notice what else is written in Isaiah 53:

"Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
For the transgression of my people he was stricken.... Though he had done no violence ... it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer ... the Lord makes his life a guilt offering.... He will bear their iniquities.... He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors (verses 4-12)."

I don't see anything that necessarily means that one is therefore granted 'eternal life' at some point before overcoming sin. Even if there were, it would contradict what Jesus said:
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

My point is made. I keep waiting for you to show otherwise.