The truth will make you free

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Now see, there you go again misrepresenting my views. How is it that someone who professes to follow the God of Truth, so consistently misrepresents the views of others?

LOL! You and I both know I'm not misrepresenting your views.

Any chance you might be able to bring yourself to honor our agreement to agree to disagree?

We never ...[text shortened]... we disagree.

Which means **gasp** you might actually have to respond to one of my posts! 🙂[/b]

You're such a child.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You're such a child.

It's not very Christlike of you to be so prudish in the face of a challenge. Why is it so difficult for you to answer questions? Are you afraid of being exposed as the anti-Christ that you are? I'd be fine with your heresies if you were at least honest and upfront about your unbelief, but you keep pretending that you're led by the Holy Spirit. Give up the charade!

Originally posted by knightmeister
As for "the atoning sacrifice of Jesus's blood", well, it's sort of an interesting concept, though I have to believe that the common conception insofar as I'm aware is very much a product of "Christianity."----THINKOFONE------




Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mark 14:2 r as a Jew , knowing full well what the shedding of blood meant during this time.

Thanks for posting the verses. I can see where "Christianity" drew from them, but I have to believe that there's a great deal of distance between what Jesus said and what "Christianity" extrapolated.

When I look at the following I have to believe that Jesus had something very important to tell us that seems to have been seriously de-emphasized by "Christianity":

Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

One thing that I don't see in the verses you provided is Jesus giving an explanation of what exactly needs to take place for salvation. He does however very strongly emphasize the need to overcome the desire to sin elsewhere. If one is able to break the chains of sin, isn't that the very definition of salvation?

I have to believe that there are alternate interpretations that better incorporate what I see as the core of the teachings of Jesus and preserve the spirit of the verses you've posted. There are just so many verses with Jesus pointing to actually watching out for your fellow man and living a life of truth, love compassion, justice, etc. I don't think it's possible for people to do this if they continue to remain a slave of sin.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Thanks for posting the verses. I can see where "Christianity" drew from them, but I have to believe that there's a great deal of distance between what Jesus said and what "Christianity" extrapolated.

When I look at the following I have to believe that Jesus had something very important to tell us that seems to have been seriously de-emphasized by "Chr nk it's possible for people to do this if they continue to remain a slave of sin.

One thing that I don't see in the verses you provided is Jesus giving an explanation of what exactly needs to take place for salvation.

Jesus may not explain what exactly needs to take place for salvation in the verses which KM provided, but He certainly does elsewhere. Here is Christ in His own words describing exactly what is needed for salvation to take place:

"He who believes* and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe* will be condemned" (Mark 16:16).

"He who believes* in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe* is condemned already, because he has not believed* in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:18).

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes* in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life" (John 5:24).

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes* in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes* in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:14-16).

"He who believes* in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe* the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36).

"Jesus replied, This is the work that God asks of you: that you believe* in the One Whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

"And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes* in Me shall never thirst" (John 6:35).

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes* in Me has everlasting life" (John 6:47).

-----------------------

*Believes = pisteuo. Pisteuo is translated, "to trust, trust to or in, put faith in, rely on, believe in."

(1) trust: "reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, surety, etc., of a person or thing; confidence"

(2) faith: "confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability"

(3) to rely: "to depend confidently; put trust in"

(4) believe: "to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so."

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I have to believe that there are alternate interpretations that better incorporate what I see as the core of the teachings of Jesus and preserve the spirit of the verses you've posted.

The verses which KM posted have to do with Christ dying for our sins. Christ died in order to make it possible for our salvation; that is, in order to make forgiveness possible for all those who trust in Him. How is forgiveness at odds with Christ's call to holiness and good works?

I don't think it's possible for people to do this if they continue to remain a slave of sin.

The "alternative" interpretation which incorporates the core of Christ's teachings and preserves the spirit of the verses KM posted, is faith. You need faith in Jesus Christ. Without faith in Jesus Christ it will be impossible for you to follow Him. You need a confident, joyful, faithful assurance in Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Thanks for posting the verses. I can see where "Christianity" drew from them, but I have to believe that there's a great deal of distance between what Jesus said and what "Christianity" extrapolated.

When I look at the following I have to believe that Jesus had something very important to tell us that seems to have been seriously de-emphasized by "Chr ...[text shortened]... nk it's possible for people to do this if they continue to remain a slave of sin.

Thanks for posting the verses. I can see where "Christianity" drew from them, but I have to believe that there's a great deal of distance between what Jesus said and what "Christianity" extrapolated.--------think of one----------------

Why do you have to believe this? You keep saying you have to believe this and that , why don't you just look objectively at it and see the logic of it? Jesus said his death was the fulfilment of scripture and also said that his blood was for the remission of sins and to set up a new covenant/testament. This refers directly back to passages like those in Isaiah and directly to the meaning of the passover and relationship between blood sacrifice and the covering of sins. This was according to him the will of his Father , which for him was utterly central.

So it's not a matter of having to believe anything it's just directly and explicitly what jesus said about himself . Do you really , really think that jesus was so naive and so dumb as to not realise what he was saying ? The mere act of comparing himself to the blood of the sacrficial lamb during passover was incredible in itself. Jesus was a jew and knew full well what he was saying and how it would be seen. He also knew full well what Isaiah himself and others had prophesized. It's dishonest to pretend that he did not understand the gravity and meaning of what he said. This is the point you miss. Jesus was always very precise , deliberate and scripturally spot on. It's nonsense to think that he would overlook something like this. He was not a man given to careless sound bites.

When you think about it he was being very explicit , it is you that is being vague and evasive. You simply do not believe that he came to do what he directly said he came to do. The extrapolation Christianity makes is I'm afraid entirely valid and it's up to you to show that it isn't , instead all you talk about is what you "have to believe". Are you sure it isn't what you "want to believe"?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Thanks for posting the verses. I can see where "Christianity" drew from them, but I have to believe that there's a great deal of distance between what Jesus said and what "Christianity" extrapolated.

When I look at the following I have to believe that Jesus had something very important to tell us that seems to have been seriously de-emphasized by "Chr ...[text shortened]... nk it's possible for people to do this if they continue to remain a slave of sin.

When I look at the following I have to believe that Jesus had something very important to tell us that seems to have been seriously de-emphasized by "Christianity":

-------think of one------------------

This may or may not be true . You may have a point here , however , you must not use this as an excuse to ignore what Jesus explicitly said about himself and his death. The issue is what Jesus emphasised and although the verse you quote regarding sin are more numerous , the quotes regarding his saving blood and the meaning of his death are followed through by jesus in a grizzly , costly death One could say that actions speak just as loudly as words?

Originally posted by knightmeister
When I look at the following I have to believe that Jesus had something very important to tell us that seems to have been seriously de-emphasized by "Christianity":

-------think of one------------------

This may or may not be true . You may have a point here , however , you must not use this as an excuse to ignore what Jesus explicitly said abou ...[text shortened]... y jesus in a grizzly , costly death One could say that actions speak just as loudly as words?

Be careful KM. I think you are on the verge of being judged to be a childish hypocritical liar. 😉

Originally posted by whodey
Be careful KM. I think you are on the verge of being judged to be a childish hypocritical liar. 😉

My hope is that Think of One has more respect for me than that. He knows that I am not personally attacking him. I also think there is some mutual respect for each others views because I actually think he has some good points to make about Christianity and I sometimes tend to agree that we settle for second best with sin and don't take jesus at his word.

Having said this , his argument is with Jesus , not me , because it was jesus who placed his own death specifically as the fulfillment of prophecy and scripture and explicitly bought into passover symbolism. He said his body was broken for us to make a new covenant and for the remission of sins. He said it, not me , this is what I am trying to get him to realise but it's not an ego thing for me. Tof One knows this I hope.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Thanks for posting the verses. I can see where "Christianity" drew from them, but I have to believe that there's a great deal of distance between what Jesus said and what "Christianity" extrapolated.--------think of one----------------

Why do you have to believe this? You keep saying you have to believe this and that , why don't you just look object what you "have to believe". Are you sure it isn't what you "want to believe"?

This is what Jesus explicitly says:
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

I've seen nothing where Jesus qualifies these and other statements and explicitly says he's willing to accept something less than the above. "Christianity" would lead us to believe that He contradicts Himself.

This doesn't at all discount His sacrifice. This doesn't mean His sacrifice wasn't for the remission of sin. This doesn't mean that He didn't fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah. This doesn't mean that He didn't set up a new covenant.

Is it possible Jesus tells us his mission?:
John 15:22-25
"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. "He who hates Me hates My Father also. "If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. "But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, 'THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.'


Is it possible Jesus knew that He would be killed for bringing this hate upon Himself? Is it possible Jesus knew He was signing His own death warrant?

Jesus brought such a beautiful vision of humility, truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. So far as I know, Jesus never says He's willing to accept anything less than breaking the chains of sin. To believe otherwise can only hamper the fulfillment of His vision.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
This is what Jesus explicitly says:
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

I've seen nothing where Jesus qualifies these and other statements and explicitly says he's willing to accept something less than the above f sin. To believe otherwise can only hamper the fulfillment of His vision.

This doesn't at all discount His sacrifice. This doesn't mean His sacrifice wasn't for the remission of sin. This doesn't mean that He didn't fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah. This doesn't mean that He didn't set up a new covenant.-----think of one---------

So you DO finally accept what jesus said about himself is true. You accept he is the lamb of God slain for mankind and that his blood is shed for sin. You believe (I assume) that his sacrifice was to put man right with God in some way and to atone for sin. You must also therefore subscribe to what he said about us living in him and remaining in him as he lives in us via the Holy Spirit.

The bread of the communion then becomes much more than some "ritual" (as you put it) but a central concept because we take the bread in to our bodies (symbolically) and become one with Christ (via the spirit). You would then sign up to the new covenant that Jesus spoke of? The covenant that means that we do not have to perform works to gain God's love , grace and favour , but reverses it so that we gain God's love , grace and favour IN ORDER that we may perform works.

Remember , jesus said he was the true vine and that we should be the branches of the vine. We must remain in him. To to remain in him we need to receive him first via faith.

Basic Christian stuff really , drawn directly from what Jesus taught. Why can't you renconcile it with the other things he taught? Me thinks you see a contradiction that is not really there.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
This is what Jesus explicitly says:
"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

I've seen nothing where Jesus qualifies these and other statements and explicitly says he's willing to accept something less than the above ...[text shortened]... f sin. To believe otherwise can only hamper the fulfillment of His vision.

Jesus brought such a beautiful vision of humility, truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. So far as I know, Jesus never says He's willing to accept anything less than breaking the chains of sin...................... (THINK OF ONE)

.........................which is exactly where the cross comes in the whole new covenant , atonement thing. What greater power is there available in the universe to break those chains than the spirit of God himself? God gives us this power as a gift via jesus to break those very chains you speak of.

The cross is where jesus broke sin for all time and set us free. Our job is to receive what Jesus achieved for us. Our job is to work with God and to allow him into those areas of our hearts that need setting free. This is the hard graft of Christianity. You think we are to just sit back and leave it to Jesus? Paul says we are to become co creators with God , but it's God's power that really breaks the chains which is why we need to receive it for the gift it is. The cross puts us right with God in the sense that we are no longer condemned and we can have a relationship with him before we are perfected , but in your mind that seems to mean that we just light a cigar and think that it's Ok to sin.

Originally posted by knightmeister
This doesn't at all discount His sacrifice. This doesn't mean His sacrifice wasn't for the remission of sin. This doesn't mean that He didn't fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah. This doesn't mean that He didn't set up a new covenant.-----think of one---------

So you DO finally accept what jesus said about himself is true. You accept he is the lamb of Go other things he taught? Me thinks you see a contradiction that is not really there.

Actually I was trying to show a scenario where Jesus is consistent within what He says. Where he is consistent within Himself.

I definitely believe His vision and means of achieving that vision. Note that this does NOT include "Christianity's" concept of what that might entail. A lot of the rest falls into the "possible" category for me.

I really have no motivation for creating a "contradiction that is not really there." However for "Christians" there is a very strong motivation for doing so: They don't want to give up the desires of the self.

I can't understand why the words of Jesus don't sway you:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

I'm thinking if he meant, "except for those who say they believe in me, take communion, and are in the process of trying to overcome sin", he'd have said it.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Actually I was trying to show a scenario where Jesus is consistent within what He says. Where he is consistent within Himself.

I definitely believe His vision and means of achieving that vision. Note that this does NOT include "Christianity's" concept of what that might entail. A lot of the rest falls into the "possible" category for me.

I really h ...[text shortened]... mmunion, and are in the process of trying to overcome sin", he'd have said it.

I definitely believe His vision and means of achieving that vision. Note that this does NOT include "Christianity's" concept of what that might entail. A lot of the rest falls into the "possible" category for me.
-----think of one------------

So what is your interpretation of Jesus's death then? He obviously felt he was achieving something and it was connected with the new covenant , remission of sins, atonement , and putting us right with God in some way. How do you make sense of it ? Would it be fair to say that he's got you confused?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Actually I was trying to show a scenario where Jesus is consistent within what He says. Where he is consistent within Himself.

I definitely believe His vision and means of achieving that vision. Note that this does NOT include "Christianity's" concept of what that might entail. A lot of the rest falls into the "possible" category for me.

I really h ...[text shortened]... mmunion, and are in the process of trying to overcome sin", he'd have said it.

I really have no motivation for creating a "contradiction that is not really there." Think of one-------------

I did not say that , I said simply that you see an apparent contradiction in Jesus's teachings.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Actually I was trying to show a scenario where Jesus is consistent within what He says. Where he is consistent within Himself.

I definitely believe His vision and means of achieving that vision. Note that this does NOT include "Christianity's" concept of what that might entail. A lot of the rest falls into the "possible" category for me.

I really h mmunion, and are in the process of trying to overcome sin", he'd have said it.

I can't understand why the words of Jesus don't sway you:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

I'm thinking if he meant, "except for those who say they believe in me, take communion, and are in the process of trying to overcome sin", he'd have said it.[/b]------------THINK OF ONE----------------

RESPONSE--------------------
Sway me to what? If you look closer at this quote that have been repeating one can see that Jesus is saying that in essence we are all slaves to sin. He knew that the Jews had spent 100's of years trying to free themselves from sin and become righteous before God but that things still needed to be put right. He's basically saying that the condition of mankind is to be in slavery to sin. So waht's his solution to this problem? Let's see below...(in more context this time)......



31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants[b] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.


KM------As we can see the truth that sets us free is the truth that the "Son will set you free" so that we can be "free indeed". At no point does he say anything like "come on guys just try harder and you can free yourself from sin" . He says that he (the Son) will set the slaves free and break the chains of sin . How ? Well I think you will guess that bit.

Now , here's where you have to think harder. Did jesus come just to say "Stop sinning!" or "look at you , you are sinning!"?????? This would be as crass and simplistic as someone saying to you "Don't be depressed!" - to which you might respond "Oooooh I never thought of that , how clever!"

No , he is clearly saying something more radical than that and this explains why God sent his Son rather than just another prophet. Only a Son of God can die and set enslaved mankind free from sin via a new covenant.

Here we can see he's saying if you want to live forever then you must be set free by the Son , can you not see this?

To put this in a more experiential context here's something from Youtube to watch which shows something of what it feels like to face one's own slavery and also an emotional sense of what it cost to set us free.

YouTube