The truth will make you free

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ephin , to me it doesn't even matter what he means by "believe" as such because I don't feel that believing in Christ's saving blood and believing in his commandments and teachings are mutually exclusive. Think of One sees them on oppositie poles and cannot understand (or so it seems) how Christ can mean both.
Faith in God's grace to me doesn't mean ...[text shortened]... achieve on the cross? Does he think he was misguided or deluded or something? Bizarre!

Explain what the following mean:

"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]...the word "believe", which is where we've been stalled for some time.

No, where you've been stalled for some time. You've been attempting to change the meaning of the word "believe" to fit your particular theology. You want it to mean, "keeping God's commandments," but you are missing a step. Let me define the word "believe" as it u hrist lives in you and that you remain in him as he commanded?[/b]

"You want it to mean, 'keeping God's commandments,...'"

Now see, when have I ever said that? You're continually putting words in my mouth. What compells you to do so?

If a man says he believes in fidelity in marriage and cheats on his wife, does he truly believe in fidelity in marriage or does he just like to think/say he does?

As for myself, I don't think he truly believes in fidelity in marriage. If he did, he'd have remained faithful. Well maybe you do think he "believes."

I've seen nothing from Jesus that would lead me to think that he's talking about that lesser level of belief. If you know of something that shows he was talking about that lesser level of belief, now's the time for you to point it out to me. I've pointed out several verses that lead me to think that he was talking about the greater level of belief.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]"You want it to mean, 'keeping God's commandments,...'"

Now see, when have I ever said that? You're continually putting words in my mouth. What compells you to do so?

If a man says he believes in fidelity in marriage and cheats on his wife, does he truly believe in fidelity in marriage or does he just like to think/say he does?

As for mys ...[text shortened]... erses that lead me to think that he was talking about the greater level of belief.[/b]

Now see, when have I ever said that? You're continually putting words in my mouth. What compells you to do so?

Why do you insist on denying what you claim?

"Note the conditions* on which the above hinge. I have to think that these conditions* indicate what he might have meant by "believe."' - ThinkOfOne

* The "conditions" which you refer to here are "keeping God's commandments."

-----------------------------

I've seen nothing from Jesus that would lead me to think that he's talking about that lesser level of belief. If you know of something that shows he was talking about that lesser level of belief, now's the time for you to point it out to me. I've pointed out several verses that lead me to think that he was talking about the greater level of belief.

Of course Jesus isn't talking about a "lesser level of belief," and neither am I.

Where do you get the idea that the faith which Christ refers to in John 3:16-18 doesn't lead a person to live a holy life, full of good works? Where do you get the idea that Christ is talking about an empty faith?

Trust in Christ is what He is calling you to. You either trust Him for your salvation, or you don't. If you do, then your life will reflect His teachings. If you don't, then your life will not have changed much, if at all.

So you can see, everything depends on whether faith in Christ is present or not. Faith is preeminent. (Keep in mind, again, we are not talking about a "dead faith." )

The error which you need to divest yourself of is the belief that a person must perform good works in order to receive salvation. As Augustine points out, we don't perform good works in order to receive grace, instead we receive grace that we may perform good works.

Faith (again, not "dead faith" ) in Jesus Christ releases the transformative power of the Holy Spirit in a believer's life. It is the Holy Spirit which sanctifies people and leads them into the good works which God has prepared for them.

Since you are not born-again, you cannot grasp the importance of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer. But if and when you cease striving for God's grace and instead receive it by faith, faith in the work which Christ accomplished for you on the cross, then you will experience the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling inside you. (Note: even Jesus Christ had to receive the Holy Spirit, which He did after John baptized Him in the Jordan).

I understand that you've had negative experiences with false Christians, but you must understand that faithless people do not disprove scripture.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]Now see, when have I ever said that? You're continually putting words in my mouth. What compells you to do so?

Why do you insist on denying what you claim?

"Note the conditions* on which the above hinge. I have to think that these conditions* indicate what he might have meant by "believe."' - ThinkOfOne

* The "conditions" which you refer you must understand that faithless people do not disprove scripture.[/b]

I'm sorry, but in reading your post it's evident that you have a poor grasp on what I believe or even on what I've posted before. Sometimes I wonder if perhaps you confuse my posts with someone elses or maybe you have a generic idea of where someone who you deem "not born-again" is coming from. I've tried explaining it in a number of different ways a number of different times. Evidently my posts are unclear to you for whatever reason. So, perhaps we just need to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I'm sorry, but in reading your post it's evident that you have a poor grasp on what I believe or even on what I've posted before. Sometimes I wonder if perhaps you confuse my posts with someone elses or maybe you have a generic idea of where someone who you deem "not born-again" is coming from. I've tried explaining it in a number of different ways a num ...[text shortened]... sts are unclear to you for whatever reason. So, perhaps we just need to agree to disagree.

Perhaps your posts aren't clear to you. 🙂

I will agree to disagree, but first tell me what it is about my exegesis that you disagree with.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Perhaps your posts aren't clear to you. 🙂

I will agree to disagree, but first tell me what it is about my exegesis that you disagree with.

Does your arrogance have any bounds? This is truly sad 🙁

Originally posted by epiphinehas

I understand that you've had negative experiences with false Christians, but you must understand that faithless people do not disprove scripture.

I’m not sure what a “false Christian” is (they don’t tend to identify themselves as such), just as I am not sure what a “true Christian” is—though many people, with differing theological understandings, are willing to identify themselves as such. Therefore, I refrain from accusing anyone of belonging to either group. 😉

However, based on my studies thus far of the early post-apostolic church and the Greek Orthodox Church (and other Orthodox churches in the same tradition), I have to conclude that much, if not most, of what is called Evangelical Protestantism (as well as Fundamentalist Protestantism) represents a latter-day version of Christianity that is so far removed from anything that Christians of the first seven centuries or so would have recognized as to be almost a new religion.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Does your arrogance have any bounds? This is truly sad 🙁

So what about my exegesis do you disagree with?

EDIT: I do admit that I just wanted to get a rise out of you. 🙂 I'm sure you know what you're trying to say.

Please respond to my post, if you would be so kind. I want to know what it is that you disagree with.

Originally posted by Nemesio
Er. The Roman Catholic Church is all about having a set of rules. That's what the Catechism is;
it's a list of the things a Roman Catholic is obligated to believe. Nothing situational about it. The
only time the Roman Catholic is called to apply situational ethics is when s/he is confronted with
a situation that isn't addressed by the Catechism or the Magesterium of the Church.

Nemesio

church of logic = situational ethics

catholic religion = one set of rules

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Explain what the following mean:

"Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever..."

They mean that someone who works iniquity cannot be said to be truely a follower of christ or have faith in him or his teachings. The other one means that we should not expect a man of faith to remain in slavery in sin but to begin to live as an adopted son of God.

Now , can you do me the return favour of answering my questions please? (You are still stalling for time)

Originally posted by knightmeister
They mean that someone who works iniquity cannot be said to be truely a follower of christ or have faith in him or his teachings. The other one means that we should not expect a man of faith to remain in slavery in sin but to begin to live as an adopted son of God.

Now , can you do me the return favour of answering my questions please?

It says more than that. Jesus says that He does not accept those who sin.

From what I've seen, I believe that Jesus represents Truth. I can't say the same for "Christianity." Therefore I don't believe in "Christianity". Your questions therefore hold no meaning for me. I'm not sure why you think they would. You however do seem to believe in Christianity, and so the questions hold meaning for you.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It says more than that. Jesus says that He does not accept those who sin.

From what I've seen, I believe that Jesus represents Truth. I can't say the same for "Christianity." Therefore I don't believe in "Christianity". Your questions therefore hold no meaning for me. I'm not sure why you think they would. You however do seem to believe in Christianity, and so the questions hold meaning for you.

Jesus says that He does not accept those who sin.

If Jesus does not accept those who sin, then why did He die for sinners?

Explain this message to the early church, wherein John, one of the apostles, tells about a message which they received directly from Jesus concerning sin:

"That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 John 1:3-10).

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It says more than that. Jesus says that He does not accept those who sin.

From what I've seen, I believe that Jesus represents Truth. I can't say the same for "Christianity." Therefore I don't believe in "Christianity". Your questions therefore hold no meaning for me. I'm not sure why you think they would. You however do seem to believe in Christianity, and so the questions hold meaning for you.

From what I've seen, I believe that Jesus represents Truth. I can't say the same for "Christianity." Therefore I don't believe in "Christianity". Your questions therefore hold no meaning for me. I'm not sure why you think they would. You however do seem to believe in Christianity, and so the questions hold meaning for you.
-------------------think of one----

Clever move but no , the questions I asked are in direct relation to what Jesus taught about himself and the meaning/significance of his death. Thus they cannot be dismissed as merely "Christianity" but are central to Jesus himself. Therefore if you do not subscribe to what he taught about his sacrifice for sins , the new covenant with man , the breaking of his body for us which he asked us to remember in communion nor his teachings on hell or his teachings on his ressurection then you can hardly say you follow his teachings 100% yourself.

So whilst I welcome your refreshing approach as a challenge to my faith regarding what jesus commanded us to do regarding sin , I see no reason not to challenge you on these issues. All the questions and issues I raised had great meaning for jesus and now you confess they don't mean anything to you , where does this leave you? I'm not seeking to put you down or criticize , I just think it's a bit off to start helping others do the jigsaw puzzle when you have only got half the pieces yourself.

My questions still stand because they are part of jesus's teachings. You are deflecting because I have put you on the spot. I'm sorry about this but someone had to give you a dose of your own medicine. Answer the questions...

a) Do you believe jesus died for you and your sins?
b) Do you believe in hell?
c) Do you take communion and believe in the presence of the Holy Spirit?
d) Do you believe Christ lives in you and that you remain in him as he commanded

Originally posted by knightmeister
From what I've seen, I believe that Jesus represents Truth. I can't say the same for "Christianity." Therefore I don't believe in "Christianity". Your questions therefore hold no meaning for me. I'm not sure why you think they would. You however do seem to believe in Christianity, and so the questions hold meaning for you.
-------------------think of ...[text shortened]...
d) Do you believe Christ lives in you and that you remain in him as he commanded

As the answers you seek are in the context of "Christianity", so are the questions you ask. From what I can tell, Jesus sought to help free the world from sin so that people can live in harmony based on truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. I see this as the center of his teachings.

I can answer your questions, but not in the context in which I think they are being asked. What's more, outside of that context, it doesn't seem like there's much point.

Perhaps you call them "central to Jesus himself" because you have bundled together the words of Jesus and teachings of "Christianity." From what I've read of the words of Jesus, I don't see them as central to his teachings. They are about means to an end, but not the end itself. They are about motivation, reminder and aid to conceptualization of the end. In this way, they are on the periphery.

Let me ask you this: At what point do you believe Jesus begins to "cleanse the world of sin"?

Originally posted by knightmeister
From what I've seen, I believe that Jesus represents Truth. I can't say the same for "Christianity." Therefore I don't believe in "Christianity". Your questions therefore hold no meaning for me. I'm not sure why you think they would. You however do seem to believe in Christianity, and so the questions hold meaning for you.
-------------------think of ...[text shortened]...
d) Do you believe Christ lives in you and that you remain in him as he commanded

I think it's clear ThinkOfOne is going to evade your questions, KM, as he has mine. Regardless, his theology is a perversion of Christ's teaching as a whole, and I don't think He is capable of admitting error. It might be time to, as Christ said, shake off the dust from our boots and move on.