The Universal Bright Woman

Originally posted by sonship
Thank God for a brother like Witness Lee who was not into giving Bible studies just for the sake of giving Bible studies.

Rather he was into raising up hundreds of proper local churches on the five continents.

God does have some workers who are into more than just filling people's curiosity but actually leading them to live and overcoming Christian ...[text shortened]... servant of God and his labors. More free advertizing.

[b] http://www.witnesslee.org/ [/b]

Okay my brother, but let us also make sure we keep the teachings on the right side of Jesus and discard those on His left.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Okay my brother, but let us also make sure we keep the teachings on the right side of Jesus and discard those on His left.

I am glad that you refer to me as a brother.

In the old days in the 1978 ish we were not considered brothers by some would be cult fighters.
That is until the law suits for character defamation began. THEN they said brothers should not take brothers to court. This was ironic.

I do not know what you mean by "discard those on his left".

You see we meeting as local churches who have followed the ministry of Witness Lee have NOTHING to be ashamed of in terms of healthy teaching both spiritually and biblically from our brother.

We retract nothing. We apologize for nothing.
You may disagree with something taught.
We welcome the dialogue.

We have nothing to apologize about whether the ground of locality, or the Son being called eternal Father, or early rapture, or the Lord is the Spirit.

You'll get no apology from me on any of these concepts.
And even if I turn out to be WRONG on rapture, I would have PREFERRED to interpret those passages as I do because they better prepared me to meet the Lord.

As it stands, I think we are not wrong. Some saints, some overcoming saints both alive and deceased, will be raptured to Christ in heaven CAUSING the great tribulation to happen.

This is in harmony with the FIRST horse being the preaching of the Gospel. God's people are not just reactive but PRO-active.

Originally posted by sonship
I am glad that you refer to me as a brother.

I do not know what you mean by "discard those on his left".

I do not know what you mean by "discard those on his left".

I was referring to the parable of Jesus with the sheep and the goats.

He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

(Matthew 25:33 NIV)

However, my application is with right teachings and wrong teachings. The wrong teachings being those on his left.

I believe teachings such as Jesus being the same as the Father and the same as the Holy Spirit and the teaching that the catching up or rapture is before the Great Triulation are contrary to the teachings of Jesus, and therefore should be discarded, because they are on His "left" or wrong side.

I still call you a brother in Christ because I still believe we agree on the most important scriptural topics, but that you are in need of corrections on some matters. Do you remember as Jaywill that you corrected me on a matter and I accepted it with thanks? I am now trying to return the favor with the help of the Holy Spirit.

When I use the word "cult", I am referring to teachings that are contrary to Orthodox Christian teachings. There are very dangerous cults that are like a cancer while others are benign. I view the Witness Lee cult as one with a benign tumor. However, it would be better if the tumor was not there.

Originally posted by RJHinds

However, my application is with right teachings and wrong teachings. The wrong teachings being those on his left.

Oh.

I believe teachings such as Jesus being the same as the Father and the same as the Holy Spirit and the teaching that the catching up or rapture is before the Great Triulation are contrary to the teachings of Jesus, and therefore should be discarded, because they are on His "left" or wrong side.

Crazy analogy.
But you are wrong.

In the former case it is your mind that is boggled perhaps.
But we just acknowledge the limitations of our finite mind.

I the Lord is CALLED the Prince of Peace, guess what ? He must BE the Prince of Peace.

And if the Son is called Eternal Father, your fight is not with me or Lee. He is to be called Eternal Father.

You believe the Word was WITH God and WAS God.
Why cannot you believe the Son is from the Father and IS the Father ?

To aid us in this mysterious matter theologians have come up with the phrase COINHERANCE which means One LIVES in the OTHER.

They also speak of "The Essential Trinity" and the "Economical Trinity". And having studied these matters I think they are biblical concepts and do help us to understand some of the deeper mysteries frankly uttered in the Bible.

I believe the Son is to be called Eternal Father.
But I would not say the Father was crucified on the cross.

I still call you a brother in Christ because I still believe we agree on the most important scriptural topics, but that you are in need of corrections on some matters. Do you remember as Jaywill that you corrected me on a matter and I accepted it with thanks? I am now trying to return the favor with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Okay. If that happened, I take your word, that would indeed be humility on your part.

I think we should take a rest from conversing with one another for awhile. I cannot figure out if you are somewhat reconsidering or still excusing some things. And it is not really worth the tension.

The issue is not either of us personally.

And if I must be thought of as following a cult leader I am willing to bear that kind of criticism. I expect that brothers will have to bear some misunderstanding.

I want to get off your case brother RJHinds.
I tried to explain WHY what is a problem for you is NOT a problem for me on one or two matters. What you point out as a problem, I simply in a good spirit show you that that is NOT a problem.

When you come up with a genuine problem, I'll admit that that would be a problem to a given understanding. I don't mind that

When I use the word "cult", I am referring to teachings that are contrary to Orthodox Christian teachings. There are very dangerous cults that are like a cancer while others are benign. I view the Witness Lee cult as one with a benign tumor. However, it would be better if the tumor was not there.

You're crazy in that suspicion. Its crazy to say that.

ORTHODOX literally means something like STRAIGHT FOOTED or Straight Walking.

Witness Lee has helped probably millions of Christians to have a straight footed spiritual walk. He taught us even how we can be one in a local church IN SPITE of doctrinal differences. He did so because he taught that in the end the only thing that is really going to matter is how much Jesus Christ has been wrought into your being and how BUILT up in oneness of divine love you are with the fellow members of Christ's Body.

The testimonies of what I say abound at specific churches on www.localchurches.org.

And for you to call this kind of influence a tumor, is to put it politely, just crazy.

I believe that if the Apostle John or the Apostle Paul were to take a time machine and appear in the world today teaching as before, you PROBABLY would accuse them of trying to start a CULT.

I'm serious. You and some other traditionalists would listen to them speak and probably size them up to be a THREAT to mainstream Christianity as a "tumor" and a "cult."

I think you should take your accusations to the Father in prayer for a season.

Originally posted by sonship

However, my application is with right teachings and wrong teachings. The wrong teachings being those on his left.

Oh.

[quote]
I believe teachings such as Jesus being the same as the Father and the same as the Holy Spirit and the teaching that the catching up or rapture is before the Great Triulation are contrary to the teachings of ...[text shortened]... d a "cult."

I think you should take your accusations to the Father in prayer for a season.

You say:

I believe the Son is to be called Eternal Father.
But I would not say the Father was crucified on the cross.

However, I understand that Witness Lee did say the Father was crucified on the cross, because the Son was the very same Father.

May I remind you that some that came out of the Witness Lee Local Church said something went wrong and that Witness Lee departed from the teachings of Watchman Nee by making up teachings of his own. However, I am not judging Watchman Nee as being perfect. I only know that I disagree with some of Witness Lee's teachings and do not believe they are orthodox Christian teachings.

If you do not wish to accept my correction graciously, then that is your choice. However, I will continue to challenge any teachings by you that I believe are incorrect and not inspired by the Holy Spirit as additional revelation.

Also, "The Essential Trinity" and the "Economical Trinity" is something made up by Witness Lee or Watchman Nee, I do not know which. All I know is that it is not in the Holy Bible or any orthodox teachings of the Christian Church.

Originally posted by RJHinds

However, I understand that Witness Lee did say the Father was crucified on the cross, because the Son was the very same Father.

Excuse me RJHinds. Excuse me.

I have sat through hundreds of messages hearing this man speak when he was with us. And I read many many books by him. I am very familiar with what Witness Lee taught.

Now you are going to have to use QUOTATIONS and I want to see CONTEXT. Second hand hand waving from some site like that of Jim Moran doesn't cut it.

And neither do I want to see some words cut out from one message and joined to some other words. I want to see your QUOTATION, the publication, so that I can EXAMINE the paragraph as to tone, intent, and context.

Can you provide that ?

Suppose I start to circulate a rumor - "It has been rumored that RJHinds is in fact a Communist sympathizer."

Suppose I stubbornly cling to that accusation with no EVIDENCE. Would you think that is mature of me ?

Show me your quotation and let me examine the full context.

May I remind you that some that came out of the Witness Lee Local Church

There is no "Witness Lee Church".

Witness Lee never claimed ANY church was HIS church.
That is totally and diametrically opposed to the teaching of the church BELONGING to a CITY.

Witness Lee HAD no church. Witness Lee was our SLAVE.

Suppose I said -

"It has been rumored that you are in fact a COMMUNIST.
I don't want to look at any facts. I just want to accept the rumor. "

That some brother left meeting with a local church ? ?
So what ? The church life is a test to some of us as to how thorough is our consecration.

Some disciples withdrew from following Jesus too.

The writer of the book of Hebrews said some developed a habit of not assembling with the church.

You have LEFT groups yourself I bet.
The Apostle Paul said - "Demas has abandoned me, having loved this present age, and has gone to Thessalonica ..." (2 Tim. 4:10a) and he wrote - "This you know, that all who are in Asia turned away from me ..." ( 1 Tim. 1:15)

Based on these departures do you surmise that the 13 books of the NT by Paul were authored by a cult leader ?

Brandishing that some unhappy brothers withdrew from meeting with a local church or following the ministry of Brother Lee doesn't mean that much necessarily.

This is kind of a drain on my time.
Endless wack-a-mole with your suspicious mind can be superseded by any number of better things I could be doing, frankly.

No need to spend more time on this right now.

Originally posted by sonship

However, I understand that Witness Lee did say the Father was crucified on the cross, because the Son was the very same Father.

Excuse me RJHinds. Excuse me.

I have sat through hundreds of messages hearing this man speak when he was with us. And I read many many books by him. I am very familiar with what Witness Lee taught.

Now ...[text shortened]... of better things I could be doing, frankly.

No need to spend more time on this right now.

Here are some quotes from Witness Lee's publications:

"THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS THE SPIRIT ....and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father."

Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God, p. 18-19.

"The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate Persons or three Gods; they are one God, one reality, one person."

Witness Lee, The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripaetite Man, 1970, p. 48.

Therefore, the Son is both the Father and the Spirit.

Witness Lee, The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripartite Man, p. 132)

..."the entire Godhead, the Triune God, became flesh."

Witness Lee, God's New Testament Economy, 1986, p. 230.

Since Lee says that the Son is also the Father and the Spirit and the entire Godhead became flesh and there is only one person, then that would mean he is teaching that when the Son was crucified and became dead then the Father also was crucified and became dead, according to his twisted theology of the Trinity.

Here Lee is criticizing and misrepresenting Christians who believe in the Trinity Doctrine when he makes the following statement:

"They think of the Father as one Person, sending the Son, another Person, to accomplish redemption, after which the Son sends the Spirit, yet another Person.... To split the Godhead into three separate Persons is not the revelation of the Bible...."

Witness Lee, Life Messages, p. 164

Who does he think he is?

The reason I called them the Witness Lee's Local Church Cult is because I believe the members give excessive admiration for Witness Lee as having recovered the true teachings of the early Church, as if those true teachings have been lost. Another reason I refer to it as a cult is because its leader teaches a doctrine that differs from the Doctrine of the Trinity Creed of the Christian Church and this difference has already been declared to be a heretical teaching by the early universal Christian Church. I have explained this to you in great detail already on another thread.

Below is an example of his admitting he makes up things:

Students of theology are commonly taught that they should not invent any new theological terms. The concern is that new terms might be used to introduce heresy into orthodox theology. However, during the past sixty years, the Lord has opened His Word to us and has shown us many items that had been veiled for centuries. In order to describe these things, we have been forced to invent a number of new terms. For example, in speaking of God’s dispensing Himself into His chosen people, we use the term dispensing. This term should be differentiated from the noun dispensation, which refers to the various ages arranged by God for the accomplishing of His economy. Thus, when we speak of the arrangement of the divine government, or of God’s arrangement in His economy, we use the word dispensation, but when we speak of God’s dispensing Himself into us, we use the word dispensing.

Witness Lee, Life-Study of Numbers, 145

Originally posted by RJHinds
Here are some quotes from Witness Lee's publications:

"THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS THE SPIRIT ....and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father."

Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God, p. 18-19.

[b]"The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three sep ...[text shortened]... g Himself into us, we use the word dispensing.

Witness Lee, Life-Study of Numbers, 145

Here we go again.......

Originally posted by Kevin Lee Poracan
Here we go again.......

Another thing Lee makes up is about the New Jerusalem when he says...

The three gates on each side of the holy city signify that the three of the Triune God—the Father, the Son, and the Spirit—work together to bring people into the city.

Witness Lee, The Conclusion of the New Testament, 2726

Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

Revelation 21:12-13 NKJV

His explanation is obviously bullshyte for it says the gates are named for the twelve tribes of Israel and are never closed, because it is always daylight and so all are free to come in except those far away in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone. It says the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of the city and they give it light for the nations.

Now this is the catholic (universal) faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another.

Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

First, this Universal Christian Creed says we are not to blend their Persons, which Mr. lee does when denies that God is three Persons, but only one Person.

Second, this Universal Christian Creed says that each of these three persons are DISTINCT from one another. That means they are not the SAME Person. The cult leader Mr. Lee says the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are the same person.

Third, this Universal Christian Creed says we are to confess each person individually as both God and Lord....

The word "person" is used to describe the three members of the Godhead because the word "person" is appropriate. A person is self-aware, can speak, love, hate, say "you," "yours," "me," "mine," etc. Each of the three persons in the Trinity demonstrates these qualities.

If Christ Jesus the Son of God is the very same Person as the Holy Spirit and the very same Person as the Father, why did He say I will ask the Father to send ANOTHER comforter, the Holy Spirit, if they are all the SAME? It does not make sense for Jesus to speak of ANOTHER, if He were actually talking about His very own Spirit within Him as Mr. Lee falsely teaches.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Now this is the catholic (universal) faith:

[quote] That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another.

Christian truth compels us to confess each person in ...[text shortened]... ER, if He were actually talking about His very own Spirit within Him as Mr. Lee falsely teaches.

What did Witness Lee really say?

Originally posted by RJHinds
[b]
May I remind you that some that came out of the Witness Lee Local Church

Why do some people call you “the church of Witness Lee”?


Because Witness Lee has been a prominent Bible teacher among the churches, some have mistakenly assumed that the local churches were owned or controlled by Witness Lee. This is not the case. Witness Lee himself taught and practiced, according to the clear revelation of the Scriptures, that Christ formed the church (Eph. 2:15) and is the unique Owner of the church (Rom. 16:16, Matt. 16:18, Acts 20:28) and its undisputed Leader (Acts 5:31). We uphold the biblical truth that no individual could or should ever occupy Christ's unique place in the church.
Witness Lee had a proper relationship with the local churches according to the principles set forth in the New Testament. He labored diligently and selflessly for more than seventy years to serve the churches and to minister the New Testament truths to the believers for the building up of the Body of Christ. As in any proper New Testament ministry, such as the ministry of the apostle Paul, Witness Lee's ministry raised up local churches. Just as with the apostle Paul, although local churches were established by him, these churches were never to be considered his possession or under his control. Paul spoke strongly to the Corinthian believers, rebuking them for saying that they, as the church, were “of Paul” (1 Cor. 1:12). Just as the apostle's relationship with the church was misunderstood, even by the believers (2 Cor. 12:14-19; 13:10), it should not be surprising that today there are also those who may convey a distorted view of the relationship of a minister of Christ with the churches being served.

An examination of Witness Lee's writings and teachings should dismiss any confusion regarding his relationship with the local churches. Witness Lee often described himself simply as “a bondslave of Jesus Christ.” His writings and teachings testify that during his lifetime there was no system of control set in place either by himself or through any form of hierarchy. Since his passing in 1997, the local churches have continued in the same spirit of honoring the unique headship of Christ in the church (Eph 1:22). In accordance with Scripture, neither his writings nor his teachings allow any provision for the raising up of an authoritarian structure among the churches. What Witness Lee did teach, however, regarding his relationship with the local churches and the proper biblical leadership remains with us in the local churches as a pattern:

If anyone asks who is the leader in the church, you need to say that the leader is Christ. To answer in this way indicates that you know the truth and practice the truth. If someone claims that Witness Lee is the leader, you need to tell him, “Witness Lee is our slave.”
—Witness Lee

ltm.org

Originally posted by Kevin Lee Poracan
What did Witness Lee really say?

I did not hear what Witness Lee said, but I quoted some things he apparently wrote since they were in publications attributed to him. If you wish you can throw out all those publications with those false teachings and get back on the right track.

Originally posted by RJHinds

Kevin, did you see anywhere in here Witness Lee saying that the Father died upon the cross ? That is what I THOUGHT RJHInds was going to prove Brother Lee said.

Did you see that here ?

Here are some quotes from Witness Lee's publications:

"THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS THE SPIRIT ....and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also the Eternal Father. Our Lord is the Son, and He is also the Father."

So far no substantiation that Lee wrote or said "The Father died on the cross."

Witness Lee, Concerning the Triune God, p. 18-19.

"The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate Persons or three Gods; they are one God, one reality, one person."

Kevin, do you see in this sentence Witness Lee saying that the Father died on the cross ?

Still no proof that Lee taught that the Father died on the cross.
We know that Lee taught Isaiah 9:6 and 1 Cor. 15:45; 2 Cor. 3:17.

We know he spoke of the Triune God as a supreme mystery yet for our experience. Christ, the mystery of God was Paul's utterance. Witness Lee did not invent "Christ, the mystery of God" (Col. 2:2) {/b].

So he said One lives within the Other and that this was [b]"Wonderful" (Isaiah 9:6) He taught that the Three of the Triune God were distinct but not separate.

Let's see if the charge is substantiated below the Lee said that the Father died on the cross at Calvary.

Witness Lee, The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripaetite Man, 1970, p. 48.

Therefore, the Son is both the Father and the Spirit.

Witness Lee, The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripartite Man, p. 132)

Still not explicit statement that the Father died on the cross at Calvary.

You would think that he would go to a publication about the Trinity in relation to the act of Redemption of Crucifixion rather than one whose chief aim is the subject of the Tripartite Man.

This is what they do. Hunt for words to justify their slanderous accusations but not in messages which most clearly are dedicated to the SUBJECT matter of their criticism.

..."the entire Godhead, the Triune God, became flesh."

Witness Lee, God's New Testament Economy, 1986, p. 230.

Nothing here that Paul the Apostle did not teach -

"In Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead BODILY (Colossians 2:9)

Would you say that the phrase "the entire Godhead" is pretty much like "the fullness of the Godhead" ?

For Lee to state

..."the entire Godhead, the Triune God, became flesh."

sounds to me like the Apostle Paul saying - "For in HIm all the fullness was pleased to dwell" (Col, 1:19) and that "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." (Col. 2:9)

Yes we see not passage saying the Father died on the cross explicitly.
Nor has RJHinds produced a quote from Witness Lee stating that yet.

It is not our fault that Jesus said -

"Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me. ..." (John 14:11)

It is not our fault that the revelation of the NT says "and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ... and the Word became flesh." (John 1:1,14)

It is very mysterious. Who can fully explain this ?
I think these complaints stem from more than intellectual disagreement.
I think the ring leaders of these criticisms are driven by some kind of envy masquerading as doctrinal dispute. That is the Jom Morans, the Norm Gieslers, the Ron Rhodeses.

I think at the source of these criticisms are jealousies over perceived spheres of influence. To put another way "turfs". These critics seem to think they are the door keepers of the Christian public.

Anyway, not to resort to Genetic Fallacy, Lee has not yet been demonstrated to have said that the Father died on the cross.

Since Lee says that the Son is also the Father and the Spirit and the entire Godhead became flesh and there is only one person,

Not Lee inventing something. But John 1:1; Col. 2:9; 1:19; Isaiah 9:6; are in the Bible.

Because it baffles the natural mind that the fullness of the Godhead dwells BODILY in Christ, is no reason to also be silent where the NT is silent. And concerning the Father dying on the cross, there is silence. It never says that. So Lee was not saying what the NT was silent on.

The Bible was NOT silent, however, the the Son given is to be called 'Eternal Father" God was NOT silent on that.

I guess anyone "Wonderful"{/b] must be full of [b] Wonder.

then that would mean he is teaching that when the Son was crucified and became dead then the Father also was crucified and became dead, according to his twisted theology of the Trinity.

But the Bible didn't say it.
Lee didn't say the Father died.

So we SAY where the Bible SAYS.
And where it is silent we may be SILENT also.

Jesus SAID "I and the Father are one".

Jesus did not say on the cross "My Son, My Son why have you forsaken Me the Father."

So what the natural mind reasons must be true does not supersede what the Scripture utters.

What we imagine may be right or wrong or somewhat on or somewhat off. What the Bible says takes precedence.

And the Bible says the Son will be called Eternal Father. (Iaiah 9:6).
We reserve the right to believe that the Son is called the Eternal Father yet the NT never says that the Father died on the cross.

For bafflement of our limited minds we are NOT willing to twist away that the Son will be called Eternal Father.

If we cannot completely reconcile the two revelations, that's too bad. We are called to believe both. We reserve the right to believe the Son died on the cross and not the Father died YET the Son is to be called Eternal Father.

Kevin. Peace to you in the Lord.
I have to go now. And so far I see no substantiation of the accusation.

Originally posted by sonship
Kevin, did you see anywhere in here Witness Lee saying that the Father died upon the cross ? That is what I THOUGHT RJHInds was going to prove Brother Lee said.

Did you see that here ?

[quote] Here are some quotes from Witness Lee's publications:

"THE SON IS THE FATHER, AND THE SON IS THE SPIRIT ....and the Lord Jesus who is the Son is also ...[text shortened]... ce to you in the Lord.
I have to go now. And so far I see no substantiation of the accusation.

Your comment:

So we SAY where the Bible SAYS.
And where it is silent we may be SILENT also.

Then the Holy Bible is silent on your secret rapture before the Great Tribulation.
Therefore, you should be silent about a secret rapture too.