@sonship saidJohn 1:29 - The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
The blood here signifies the redemptive aspect of Christ's death (John 1:29). The blood which flowed out for our redemption was typified by the blood of the Passover lamb (Exo. 12:7).
Exodus 12:7 - And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
Curious.
@sonship saidSounds decidedly pagan.
I already showed you that Malachi 4:2 the coming of Christ is the coming of the sun. And Daniel 12:3 employs language in which the saints as shining stars. Of course Revelation 1:16 I think the overcoming believers are represented by seven stars in the right hand of Christ.
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@sonship saidDoes this tie in with Witness Lee's 'Gap Theory' belief?
In between verse 1 and verse 2 is an unspecified interval of time. Within that unspecified interval is the career of the Daystar, the son of the morning, the early ruler Satan who was there in the dawn of creation. God created the universe "in the beginning".
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@sonship
My Encounter:
'Members of the Local Churches, also known as Living Stream Ministries, are very active on college campuses. A friend of mine ran into them several times at Cal State Fullerton. She went to one of their meetings and eventually had a few of the members meet with her, myself, my wife, and another friend of ours several times over the last few months to hear them explain their beliefs. The goal was to understand what they believe and then determine if they were a Christian group or not.
Much of what you may find online for and against the group can perhaps be a bit confusing and maybe even a little abstract. My friend considered the possibility that it may all be the result of a language barrier between us and Lee’s original writings. However, these meetings, along with further study of their writings, have made it very, very clear what these people believe – and it is not Christian at all. I’m writing this to give you an overview of what exactly the group teaches and how it is heretical.'
contrast2.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/the-false-gospel-of-witness-lee-and-the-living-stream-ministries/comment-page-2/
@sonship saidErr no you haven’t. What happened was I comprehensively debunked your erroneous claims using biblical scripture, types and imagery.
@divegeester
In any of his books, does witness Lee endorse your belief in a “fountain of blood”?
I have already shown how the Bible itself confirms that the concept of a fountain of redeeming blood is quite orthodox an concept.
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Does this tie in with Witness Lee's 'Gap Theory' belief?
Gap Theory is the name given by some to the interpretation of an unspecified interval of time between Genesis 1:1 and verse 2. It is sometimes referred to as Destruction / Reconstruction.
In this Witness Lee followed the general understanding of Watchman Nee, Chalmers, Pember, Barnhouse, Custance and others to understand a gap of time in which a pre-adamic world existed and was judged by God.
I myself adopted such an interpretation before I met with the ministry of Witness Lee. I was persuaded that this was the best understanding of Genesis from G.H. Pember's book Earth's Earliest Ages.
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Of course it isn’t. But it is odd that sonship feels that it somehow carries scriptural weight.
Cultism??
It is hyper ludicrous, IMO, that a supposed enthusiast of the Redemption of Jesus Christ, central to the Christian faith, would find a song about A fountain filled with blood unscriptural and cult like.
To quibble that the exact phraseology is lacking in Scripture of "fountain filled with blood" makes the meaning of that song heterodox or unorthodox or heretical is silly.
It would seem the quest of a contentious religious mind hunting out a doctrinal dispute just for its own sake. Maybe in protest that he doesn't have to play "second fiddle" to any other Christian teachers of the Bible.
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@sonship
'When a group like LSM uses biblical language and biblical imagery, it can be difficult to discern the error because when you read what they write, you think they mean one thing, but they actually mean something else completely. Thus things became clear to me when I was able see the negations made by LSM. This is the error of Hank Hanegraaff and those who are defending Lee and LSM. Rather than looking at the contrast, they have devoted all their effort to finding similarities. But what Lee and LSM believe becomes clear when they say what they do not believe. Thus this post will teach by way of contrast.
The Triune God
The statement of faith on the Living Stream Ministries website says “God is eternally one and also eternally the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, the three being distinct but not separate.” Sounds fine, but note what Beisner says in this 2003 article:
Look closely. Notice that it doesn’t say what the three are as “distinct”? What are the Father, the Son, and the Spirit? Cabbages? Angels? Compact discs? Extensive reading in Witness Lee’s writings discovers considerable hesitation to affirm what Christianity has affirmed through the ages: that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, though they are one God, are distinct Persons.
For example, Lee says:
The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate persons or three Gods; they are one God, one reality, one person… God is triune; that is, He is three-one. In some theological writings, the preposition in is added between three and one to make three-in-one. However, it is more accurate to say that God is three-one.
Witness Lee, The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripartite Man
(Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1970), p. 48
Lee clarified what he meant by triune. He meant three-one, not three-in-one. And, to make sure people did not misunderstand him, he said he was teaching something different than the “traditional” understanding of the Trinity.
https://contrast2.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/the-false-gospel-of-witness-lee-and-the-living-stream-ministries/comment-page-2/
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@sonship
“The traditional explanation of the Trinity is grossly inadequate and borders on tritheism. When the Spirit of God is joined with us, God is not left behind, nor does Christ remain on the throne. This is the impression Christianity gives. They think of the Father as one Person, sending the Son, another Person, to accomplish redemption, after which the Son sends the Spirit, yet another Person. The Spirit, in traditional thinking, comes into the believers, while the Father and Son are left on the throne. When believers pray, they are taught to bow before the Father and pray in the name of the Son. To split the Godhead into these separate Persons is not the revelation of the Bible, but the doctrine of the Nicene Creed”
Witness Lee, Life Messages
(Anaheim: Living Stream Ministry, 1979), p. 164
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
I said -
Shall we get into trading testimonials ?
I am under some limited time this afternoon.
But the above question is should we get into trading testimonials? I get no definite Yes or No.
You presented an "Encounter." I assure you that I can match anyone of yours with two or three positive encounters.
Do you want to trade testimonials then ?
I'll see if evasion to the question extends through the time I have to go away from the Forum on some business.
@sonship saidCorrection...
@divegeester
It is hyper ludicrous, IMO, that a supposed enthusiast of the Redemption of Jesus Christ, central to the Christian faith, would find a song about A fountain filled with blood unscriptural and cult like.
I find the song “unscriptural”
I find your apparent elevating of it to scriptural status “cultish”
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Before I have to suspend on some chores:
'When a group like LSM uses biblical language and biblical imagery,
LSM stands for Living Stream Ministry. Living Stream Ministry is a piblishing firm established for the desimination of the writings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee mainly (and some others)
LSM is not a church.
LSM is not the church.
LSM is a work whose main beneficiaries are the local churches and seeking Christians who would benefit from these writings.
Living Stream Ministry is not the name of the local churches.
A local church is not dependent upon receiving books distributed by Living Stream Ministry.
it can be difficult to discern the error because when you read what they write,
If there is supposed difficulty then one rolls up her sleeves and tackles more seriously the research to see what is going on.
Throwing up hands and saying "It is difficult" is not terribly impressive. Chess is difficult too. If you want to learn you examine carefully some things about it to get through the difficulties.
you think they mean one thing, but they actually mean something else completely.
Present your TOP TWO examples.
Please do not give LESSER examples and save you TOP ones for much latter.
Present your two TOPMOST examples of things you read which seem deceptive.
Concepts to which YOU had misunderstanding DOESN'T count as misleading.
I expect you to DEMONSTRATE your MOST STRIKING two examples of such "Say one thing" but deceptively "MEAN another"
And if you cannot do so integrity calls for you RETRACTING your accusation.
Thus things became clear to me when I was able see the negations made by LSM.
That could be said of any publishing firm which distributes thousands of paragraphs of teaching. Some times OTHER writings studied would shed light to avoid misunderstanding.
1
This is the error of Hank Hanegraaff and those who are defending Lee and LSM.
The WAS the error of Hanegraaff UNTIL he spent a few years to REALLY read through Witness Lee's books and decided that they were wrong in their initial evaluation.
But you are going to GIVE us your strongest TWO examples to prove your criticism.
Rather than looking at the contrast, they have devoted all their effort to finding similarities. But what Lee and LSM believe becomes clear when they say what they do not believe. Thus this post will teach by way of contrast.
YOUR TWO MOST STRIKING EXAMPLES ?
That's what I want to see in you next post.
All of Witness Lees messages are accompanied by the Bible verses that form the basis of what he is trying to teach. Some people misunderstand frankly because they are not enough into examining the scriptural basis of a certain message.
His messages were always like meals preceded with a menu published.
Check every message in the voluminous output at www.ministrybooks.org and verify it.
Ie.
CHAPTER ONE
ABIDING IN THE LORD AND ENJOYING HIS LIFE
Scripture Reading: 1 John 1:1-3; 2:27-28; John 15:4-5
CHAPTER SIX
IN THE HOLIEST PLACE, LIVE WITHIN THE VEIL
Scripture Reading: Heb. 10:19-20; 4:16; 1 Cor. 3:16; 1 Thes. 5:23
CHAPTER ONE
THE ALL-INCLUSIVE CHRIST—
AN INTRODUCTION
Scripture Reading: Gen. 1:1-2, 9-12, 26-27, 29; 7:17; 8:1, 13, 22; 12:1, 7; Exo. 3:8; 6:8; Ezek. 20:40-42; 1 Cor. 1:30; Col. 2:6-7, 16-17; 3:11; Eph. 2:12; Gal. 5:4
CHAPTER FIVE
THE GOODNESS OF THE LAND—
ITS UNSEARCHABLE RICHES
(2)
FOOD (1)
Scripture Reading: Deut. 8:8-10; 32:13-14; Num. 13:23, 27; 14:7-8; Judg. 9:9, 11, 13; Zech. 4:11, 14; Hosea 14:6-7; John 12:24; 6:9, 13; 15:5
CHAPTER ONE
ITS SIGNIFICANCE AND ITS BASE
Scripture Reading: Rev. 21:2-3, 9-10, 18b, 21b-22; 22:1-2
CHAPTER THREE
ITS WALL AND ITS FOUNDATIONS
Scripture Reading: Rev. 21:12a, 14a, 18a, 19-20; 4:3a
CHAPTER ONE
CHRIST IN ASCENSION
Scripture Reading: Acts 2:32-33, 36; 5:31; 10:36b; Heb. 4:14-15; 7:25-26; 8:1-2; Rev. 1:5a; Eph. 1:22
CHAPTER SEVEN
THE HEAVENLY PRIESTHOOD OF CHRIST
Scripture Reading: Heb. 2:17; 3:1; 4:14-16; 5:5-6, 10; 6:20; 7:27-28; 8:1; 10:21; Rom. 8:34
As you can see Witness Lees habit was to proceed his messages ALWAYS with the Bible passages from which he would be deriving his teaching. Care was taking for our understanding and not for misunderstanding.
And the insinuation of something underhanded going on is a slander much as the slander leveled at the Apostle Paul.