06 May 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerNo, he doesn't do that at all, he supposedly throws you into a pit of fire and torture where ther is no love, or release from darkness. That is what awaits me if you are right about his existence. And don't appeal to the idea of free will either. If god existed then my free will should be enough to keep me out of hell, if it is not, then I did not have it in the first place.
Too radical? That is exactly what he does if you would only let Him! The fact is He cannot do it if you don't believe. That is why you first need to believe. Come on, it can't be that difficult just to believe.
It is, very difficult indeed to believe, in fact I would go so far as to say I can see not one reason to do so.
06 May 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerI don't understand what you mean, perhaps you misunderstood me. If I have free will, then I should be allowed to choose whether I believe in god or not. But if I exercise this free will and choose not to believe in god, god will burn me for eternity. How is that free will?
Huh?
If your free will is conditioned to keep you out of Hell, then how is it free?
06 May 05
Originally posted by StarrmanNo doubt, but you may find that it mentions nothing about eternity, and if hell is not eternal, but only temporary and in the end all will go to "heaven" then surely you do have free will, but like I said earlier, your path to "heaven" will be different depending on how you choose.
I believe that the generally accepted view of hell involves fire and pain does it not?
06 May 05
Originally posted by mk83Is this true? I was under the impression that come judgement day, those found unworthy of heaven would be cast into hell forever, can we get a second opinion on this?
No doubt, but you may find that it mentions nothing about eternity, and if hell is not eternal, but only temporary and in the end all will go to "heaven" then surely you do have free will, but like I said earlier, your path to "heaven" will be different depending on how you choose.
Either way, time makes no difference to the fact that hell is punishment and therfore free will is an illusion.
06 May 05
Originally posted by mk83Err ... if you're talking about Christianity then the Bible does clearly mention eternal fire in Mt 25:41.
No doubt, but you may find that it mentions nothing about eternity, and if hell is not eternal, but only temporary and in the end all will go to "heaven" then surely you do have free will, but like I said earlier, your path to "heaven" will be different depending on how you choose.
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06 May 05
Originally posted by mk83Do you believe what the Bible says?
On the question of raising people from the dead, being sin or not, I believe we raise people from the dead all time with modern medical science, things like defibulators and stuff like that. So no I do not believe it is a sin to raise someone from the dead.
Secondly I believe that the definition of Sin from Gods point of view would be to go against the wil ...[text shortened]... of there life when they die, at the moment including myself in that statement.
Cheers,
MK83
Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
2 Peter 2:4 - For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment... how will the wicked stand on the day of judgement...
9 - The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
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06 May 05
2 edits
Originally posted by StarrmanThat is what awaits me if you are right about his existence.
No, he doesn't do that at all, he supposedly throws you into a pit of fire and torture where ther is no love, or release from darkness. That is what awaits me if you are right about his existence. And don't appeal to the idea of free w ...[text shortened]... act I would go so far as to say I can see not one reason to do so.
No that is what awaits you if you do not repent.
If god existed then my free will should be enough to keep me out of hell, if it is not, then I did not have it in the first place.
You are right. Your free will is enough to keep you out of hell. If you freely choose to accept the great gift of Salvation offered to you. If anyone were to despise and reject such a great gift, I would understand why they would deserve to go to Hell.
...in fact I would go so far as to say I can see not one reason to do so.
Is staying out of hell not a good enough reason?
06 May 05
3 edits
Originally posted by dj2becker
No that is what awaits you if you do not repent.
I will not repent, I have nothing to repent to or for. In fact I do not believe hell exists. However, if it does, by your rational I will end up there.
You are right. Your free will is enough to keep you out of hell. If you freely choose to accept the great Salvation offered to you.
But if I am threatened with hell, my repentence would be under duress and any talk of free will is therefore negated. If hell were not an option there would be no duress and I could exercise my free will, ie; choose to be a non-believer.
Is staying out of hell not a good enough reason?
Since I do not believe hell exists, no.
06 May 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerAh fire insurance. Is that what your faith comes down to? Well I hate to tell you this, but there are a whole lot of different fire insurances out there and most don't let you take out more than one policy at a time.
Is staying out of hell not a good enough reason?
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06 May 05
Originally posted by StarrmanSo you will easily take the chance that hell does not exist simply because you will not believe that it does exist?
Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]No that is what awaits you if you do not repent.
I will not repent, I have nothing to repent to or for. In fact I do not believe hell exists. However, if it does, by your rational I will end up there.
You are right. Your free will is enough to keep you out of hell. If you freely choose to accept the g ...[text shortened]... s staying out of hell not a good enough reason?
Since I do not believe hell exists, no.
[/b]
06 May 05
Originally posted by dj2beckerYes, exactly as I would expect you to take the chance that Muffy-hell (re:Telerion's baby) does not exist becasue you will not believe that it does exist.
So you will easily take the chance that hell does not exist simply because you will not believe that it does exist?