Theological Fatalism Revisited

Originally posted by knightmeister
The concept of "foreknowledge " is your first mistake because it places God in time and not in eternity. Do you really think that I believe that God is currently "foreseeing" my future like some cosmic psychic?

BTW- I don't agree with the model you presented and I don't think it's a necessary model to be a theist.

My model is that God never fores ...[text shortened]... D happened. I would not be a "foreseer" of the future but a watcher of the present.

You would need a time machine as you exist in time. According to you, God doesn't. Where exactly does he travel from? I thought he exists in all moments simultaneously.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Where did that come from; it certainly has no relation to what I posted!

I'll run it by you one more time; according to your model, a 3 O God "exists outside of time". He knows everything that will ever occur in the timeline he created. He always knows and forever did know. Nothing that occurs in the timeline can ever vary from his knowl ...[text shortened]... T2: No it's not necessary for a theist to believe in a 3 O God. But I thought you did.

"He knows everything that will ever occur in the timeline he created."--MARAUDER----

Spot the subtle but significant mistake.....


"will" ever occur ---that place God back in our timeline doesn't it? Oooopps!

Originally posted by no1marauder
You would need a time machine as you exist in time. According to you, God doesn't. Where exactly does he travel from? I thought he exists in all moments simultaneously.

My point is that being able to move outside of time creates different possibilities that don't seem logical to us because we are trapped in time.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Nothing can ever vary from the timeline once it has occured but until a choice is made it is not set in the timeline yet. The past is set but the present moment is set as we go along.

In a real sense until you make that choice in 2009 then it may or may not happen. Once it has been made then it is set in time. He doesn't know everything that "will" ...[text shortened]... doesn't prove anything really because for all you know he might have done something else.

God knew what Hitler would do before Hitler did it. The timeline is absolutely set from God's perspective. And he is the one who created it. And that includes for God itself.

You have made this fallacious argument many times; I in 2008 looking back at what Hitler did is not the same as a being who is 3 O, exists "outside of time" and created the universe.

Originally posted by knightmeister
"He knows everything that will ever occur in the timeline he created."--MARAUDER----

Spot the subtle but significant mistake.....


"will" ever occur ---that place God back in our timeline doesn't it? Oooopps!

No, it doesn't. There is no mistake, just an inability to convert a logical impossibility into the English language.

EDIT: I was being too nice; you deliberately ignored the next sentence which explained the prior one:

He always knows and forever did know

Originally posted by knightmeister
My point is that being able to move outside of time creates different possibilities that don't seem logical to us because we are trapped in time.

Hi, KM. How are you?

I think we’re all trying to work here with what it means for God to be “outside time”, or existing in an eternal present [that I labeled as T(0)]. By time, I think we are all talking about what is called the “arrow of time”—specifically the cosmological arrow of time, though others are outlined here, including the quantum arrow of time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow_of_time. I think it is also clear that No.1 and I are addressing only the 3-omni God-concept, and not some other one.

Although I perceive myself at time T(n) in an arrow, or flow, that runs from past—T(n-x)—to future—T(n+x)—God’s perspective, on your account, is always at that all-encompassing, eternal present, T(0). God now views events at T(n+x), as well as all events in my past T(n-x) as T(0). But the moment of creation was also T(0) for God, and at that moment God would have seen all future T(n)’s as presently happening in that “primordial moment.”

If God’s knowledge at that T(0) is—from a point of view inside of time, “was”—complete and accurate, then it can look no different to God with the passage of time. What God knows originally at T(0) is exactly what God “still” knows at that same T(0). God’s perspective and knowledge has not changed with time, else God was not originally omniscient.

Or, to put it in more “timely” terms: what God knew from the beginning is precisely what God knows now. From the point of view of God’s knowledge, nothing ever changes—God does not have to discover what will happen, nor can God be surprised by anything. God’s knowledge is like an eternal snapshot, the same always, now and forever.

How can such a God possibly will anything that was not willed from the beginning? If God were to change anything, then his T(0) knowledge would change: the snapshot would now look different to God than originally—would his eternal T(0) viewpoint allow him to know that it looks different?

I take your difference between omniscience and foreknowledge. I have no clear idea what it means for God to be “outside of time”, or what it might be like to view all past-present-future as an eternal present. But I am suggesting that—

1. If there is any change in God’s original knowledge, then God is not originally omniscient; and

2. That means that such a God cannot will anything other than the exact content of that original knowledge.

That implies that God’s will(ing) is complete and immutable originally. God cannot now actively will anything else but that original vision (which remains the vision), which also would have included full knowledge of any and all God’s actions in what to us seems like times that come after creation (but which, for God is all the same moment).

For us, it might appear as if God were willing the same thing over and over and over through time; but for God it is a single willing, accomplished at creation. So it really makes no sense to talk of God as having “free will,” since that implies the ability to choose and to change what one wills.

I have really just said the same thing a couple of different ways in this post. And I’m thinking through this as I go. I find these time discussions to be quite difficult.

Now, if you accept that notion of a single, original and comprehensive willing on God’s part at creation, you still have to consider my reductio on page 1. In any event, it appears that the O-O-O God cannot have free will (certainly of the libertarian variety—and I suspect not of the compatibilist variety either, though I’d like to see someone make presentation on that).

Originally posted by no1marauder
No, it doesn't. There is no mistake, just an inability to convert a logical impossibility into the English language.

EDIT: I was being too nice; you deliberately ignored the next sentence which explained the prior one:

He always knows and forever did know

With a 3 O God only B is possible; prior timelines cannot be changed and God retain his omniscience. However, in B God himself is just as constrained as anybody else by what has and what will happen and has no ability to change his past, present or future actions (else omniscience fails). This makes God not only an entity that lacks free will, but one who KNOWS he lacks free will. A very curious omnipotent being.

I've read this 3 times now. I think it captures it as well as it can be, even if one adds a footnote about God not being "in" the timeline. (Which my last post seems to be: just a lengthy footnote.)

And, as I read this statement of yours again, it strikes me that such a footnote might just be unnecessary: God's omniscience implies that God is aware of multiple perspectives, else he would be constrained to only a timeless perspective. And, to paraphrase you: That would be a very curious omniscient being.

Originally posted by knightmeister
My point is that being able to move outside of time creates different possibilities that don't seem logical to us because we are trapped in time.

I would say that the notion of “a being that exists outside of time” not only seems illogical to us, but is actually incoherent to us.

As is the notion of a being who “sees” everything all-at-once in a “continual” eternal present moment; I suspect that what people really conceive in their imaginations when they use that kind of talk is something like a being who “sees” everything happening really really fast, like fast-forwarding and fast-reversing a video. Think of it: even using that word “happening” implies time; to say that God knows “what happens” is to say that God knows according to time-sequence. If there are no sequential moments in God’s perception, then God does not “see” anything happen.

No.1 and I have been grappling with using time-bound language here in order to entertain the question of what it would mean for God to be “outside of time”, even if such a concept did make sense.

We can become bewitched by our own language when we assume that using words with coherent meanings in a properly grammatical statement means that what we have said is coherent. (I certainly don’t pretend to be immune from this.)

I suggest that, if God’s mode of knowing cannot be expressed in any humanly coherent terms, it remains incoherent to human understanding, and should not be talked about at all.

______________________________________

Now, on the flip side—

A common response to the question “Does God’s omnipotence mean that God can create a rock too heavy for God to lift?” is something like: “No; God is bound by the laws of logic, which themselves reflect both the nature of God’s mind, how God thinks, creates and acts.” In other words, it’s just another statement of God’s being bound by God’s own nature. This removes the element of incoherence—and silliness—from the concept of omnipotence, at least so far as that kind of question goes. (Can an omnipotent God change the past?)

Now, I do not see why a similar move cannot be made with regard to God’s omniscience—and perhaps, in the history of theology, it has.

Originally posted by vistesd
I would say that the notion of “a being that exists outside of time” not only seems illogical to us, but is actually incoherent to us.

As is the notion of a being who “sees” everything all-at-once in a “continual” eternal present moment; I suspect that what people really conceive in their imaginations when they use that kind of talk is something ...[text shortened]... cannot be made with regard to God’s omniscience—and perhaps, in the history of theology, it has.

One idea I have got (and it's only guess work) is that although God is outside of time (which in reality means independent of time in this universe) there is still a sequence of events one after another in eternity. The idea of eternity is that God is not trapped in our universe repleat with it's causal sequences and 4 dimensions. This may or may not mean that God exists outside of any time altogether.

Originally posted by no1marauder
God knew what Hitler would do before Hitler did it. The timeline is absolutely set from God's perspective. And he is the one who created it. And that includes for God itself.

You have made this fallacious argument many times; I in 2008 looking back at what Hitler did is not the same as a being who is 3 O, exists "outside of time" and created the universe.

You are right , it is not exactly the same but it gives us an idea of how God sees the universe. God knows what Hitler will do before he does it ---you also know what Hitler will do before he does it. To an extent you have partial omniscience of Hitler's life.

Now , think about what enables you to know Hitler's future , is it because Hitler's choices are pre- determined?

Originally posted by vistesd
As is the notion of a being who “sees” everything all-at-once in a “continual” eternal present moment; I suspect that what people really conceive in their imaginations when they use that kind of talk is something like a being who “sees” everything happening really really fast, like fast-forwarding and fast-reversing a video. Think of it: even using ...[text shortened]... e are no sequential moments in God’s perception, then God does not “see” anything happen.

I tried to demonstrate part of what you are talking about with a computer program analogy.
A computer program can be dynamic when run with various external inputs. But once it has been run, and is viewed instead as a single completed run, with all steps and outputs recorded then it become incoherent to discuss alternative inputs and outputs with regards to the specific recorded run. Even though the program has an IF statement, it is incoherent to say that the program had a choice when referring to the specific run.
If God can exist outside time then spacetime must be viewed as a static printed program run and not as a dynamic program with unknown variables.
The same applies to history. To discuss what might have been may be an interesting exercise, but to claim that it is reality would be wrong and to talk of 'possible choices' whilst simultaneously confining oneself to recorded history is incoherent.

Originally posted by no1marauder
God knew what Hitler would do before Hitler did it. The timeline is absolutely set from God's perspective. And he is the one who created it. And that includes for God itself.

You have made this fallacious argument many times; I in 2008 looking back at what Hitler did is not the same as a being who is 3 O, exists "outside of time" and created the universe.

God knew what Hitler would do before Hitler did it. ----no1 marauder---


Yes ,yes , but think a little harder now. Hitler is travelling along a timeline and God knows what will happen in HITLER'S future but this does not mean that God is also travelling alongside Hitler "in time". Hitler's future is not THE future for God.

If I had a time machine and travelled back in time to 1938 I would know that Hitler was about to choose to invade poland. BUT----AND THIS IS A HUGE POINT HERE -- I would not be reliant on Hitler's choice to be predetermined---the reason (and only reason) I would know about 1939 is because for me it is basic history --it's already happened. If Hitler had invaded france first then that would be what I would know instead...but he didn't. In my time machine in 1938 I would be present in 1938 but also kind of present in 2008 also. I would know what Hitler was "about to do" and "did do" all at the same time.


Can you not see then that for God it's a matter of knowing what Hitler did before he does it (from Hitler's time perspective) BUT also at the same time it's really a matter of knowing what Hitler actually did in the past.

One can say that God knew what Hitler would do "before" he did it , but actually it's more a case of God knowing what Hitler did "after" he did it. He knows Hitler's future because it's already happened for him. He does not know it "in advance" of it happening because it's a past event.

Please do try and think outside of 4 dimensions if you can. It's hard I know but if you give it a chance it becomes easier.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I tried to demonstrate part of what you are talking about with a computer program analogy.
A computer program can be dynamic when run with various external inputs. But once it has been run, and is viewed instead as a single completed run, with all steps and outputs recorded then it become incoherent to discuss alternative inputs and outputs with regards ...[text shortened]... 'possible choices' whilst simultaneously confining oneself to recorded history is incoherent.

Yes , once the program is run then it becomes static , just like the past becomes fixed and cannot be changed. Hitler has invaded poland and that's that , it cannot be changed now.

However, free will is not incompatible with such a model because all that is required is for choice to be possible within each present moment in the "run". As long as Hitler is free in the present moment know as sept 1939 (was it?) to make that choice then the fact that this present moment becomes sealed in what we now know is the past for us does not matter as long as Hitler was free at that precise moment in time.

It's a bit like a having a photo of someone choosing to do something in the future . It may look set , and in some senses it is set , but free will exists not in the past or the future but in the NOW. In your imaginary photo all that is needed is for that person at that precise moment to be free to choose. The fact that present moments eventually become sealed in time does not mean that at that moment in time they were static and sealed. Present moments can get fixed and sealed very easily and can look very static. A moment of spontaneous creativity by picasso can become sealed and fixed on a canvas but that does not mean that at the present moment the painting was being done , something very creative and choiceful was not taking place.

Free will exists in the now.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I tried to demonstrate part of what you are talking about with a computer program analogy.
A computer program can be dynamic when run with various external inputs. But once it has been run, and is viewed instead as a single completed run, with all steps and outputs recorded then it become incoherent to discuss alternative inputs and outputs with regards ...[text shortened]... 'possible choices' whilst simultaneously confining oneself to recorded history is incoherent.

If God can exist outside time then spacetime must be viewed as a static printed program run and not as a dynamic program with unknown variables.-----whitey-----

But what if God saw time as both? In one sense we imagine that God must be stepping back from time and looking at it like a piece of string. However, he could also be present in all the moments along that string. If he is omnipresent then he must be omnipresent to all points in time and space as well as being eternal. Maybe for a 5 dimensional being time is both dynamic AND static. In any case , what God sees is not important or relevant as long as for each person in each present moment he is free. Just because I see picasso's artwork statically does not mean that at the moment of creation it was not a dynamic thing.



Just because God is 5 dimensional does not mean that God cannot be in time as well. A 3d sphere exists in both 2 and 3 dimensions. It's 3dimensionality does not exclude it from 2 dimensions.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Yes , once the program is run then it becomes static , just like the past becomes fixed and cannot be changed. Hitler has invaded poland and that's that , it cannot be changed now.

Would you agree that it is incoherent to say that a computer program has a 'choice' at an IF statement when referring to a particular static run that has already been completed?