Theological Fatalism Revisited

Originally posted by no1marauder
Don't start your usual dodging. My post is utterly clear; the "unsupported statements" are central tenets of your dogma, being the logical consequences of a thing having 3 O attributes. I've presented my argument; if you have nothing to say about it stop cluttering up the thread.

Yes , but at least theists are honest about it being a dogma rather than pretending to have made a logical argument when we haven't.

I dispute your idea of a single timeline implying determinism for example but how can I dispute a statement? There was no real argument that you presented for me to dispute

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ok , you chose not to think about it then. The answer is two- fold. Firstly , think about the relationship between a 2dimensional circle and a 3d sphere. A 3d sphere contains the cirlce within it and is present in 2 dimensions as well as 3. A 3d sphere exists both in 2dimensions and 3 dimensions. It can transcend 2 dimensions and also exist in both 2 ...[text shortened]... e (4d) and exists in both.

I'm sure you could at least had a stab at thinking this through?

This is irrelevant to the discussion above which centers on a 3 O God. If you want to argue that Jesus has less than 3 O attributes in another thread, go ahead, but that has nothing to do with the issues raised here.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Yes , but at least theists are honest about it being a dogma rather than pretending to have made a logical argument when we haven't.

I dispute your idea of a single timeline implying determinism for example but how can I dispute a statement? There was no real argument that you presented for me to dispute

Obviously you're refusing to address the points raised by denying any points were raised! This is typical of you.

The argument's been presented; address it or don't.

EDIT: Concentrate on this passage:

With a 3 O God only B is possible; prior timelines cannot be changed and God retain his omniscience. However, in B God himself is just as constrained as anybody else by what has and what will happen and has no ability to change his past, present or future actions (else omniscience fails). This makes God not only an entity that lacks free will, but one who KNOWS he lacks free will. A very curious omnipotent being.

Originally posted by no1marauder
This is irrelevant to the discussion above which centers on a 3 O God. If you want to argue that Jesus has less than 3 O attributes in another thread, go ahead, but that has nothing to do with the issues raised here.

I gave you an answer to your question. It was your question so you must have thought it relevant enough to explore! Now I have you on the back foot you choose to see it as irrelevant? Now who's dodging??

Originally posted by knightmeister
I gave you an answer to your question. It was your question so you must have thought it relevant enough to explore! Now I have you on the back foot you choose to see it as irrelevant? Now who's dodging??

Please respond to my post in some sort of logical manner. The post you just made doesn't.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Obviously you're refusing to address the points raised by denying any points were raised! This is typical of you.

The argument's been presented; address it or don't.

If there is no future or past for God, he doesn't have free will as he has always been incapable of doing anything but what he did i.e. he never choose to do anything. This makes him an automation. ---marauder-----


This was your point and you brought it up . I responded to it and probably surprised you a bit because you are programmed to think that all theists are bonkers and couldn't argue their way out of a cardboard box. Notice that it is you that wants to dodge now and not me....I'm quite happy to continue.....

Originally posted by no1marauder
Please respond to my post in some sort of logical manner. The post you just made doesn't.

Ok , let me ask you this....How can God know what will happen to marauder in 2008 if the universe is never created? Logical enough for you?

Originally posted by knightmeister
If there is no future or past for God, he doesn't have free will as he has always been incapable of doing anything but what he did i.e. he never choose to do anything. This makes him an automation. ---marauder-----


This was your point and you brought it up . I responded to it and probably surprised you a bit because you are programmed to think tha ...[text shortened]... Notice that it is you that wants to dodge now and not me....I'm quite happy to continue.....

You haven't surprised me by not responding to the points raised; that is your MO. Are you saying that God the Father isn't a 3 O being? Because if he is, you have failed to present any argument as to why he is not an automation without free will.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Ok , let me ask you this....How can God know what will happen to marauder in 2008 if the universe is never created? Logical enough for you?

Obviously he couldn't. But universal omniscience says he knew what marauder would do in 2008 WHEN he created the universe. He also knew what God would do in 2008 WHEN he created the universe. Explain what part "free will" plays in this.

Originally posted by no1marauder
You haven't surprised me by not responding to the points raised; that is your MO. Are you saying that God the Father isn't a 3 O being? Because if he is, you have failed to present any argument as to why he is not an automation without free will.

Why should he be an automaton? I have ideas about eternity but I can't know how God makes choices. We make choices in time , does that mean God has to? If God has no brain as such does that mean he can't think? I have no answer to these questions.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Why should he be an automaton? I have ideas about eternity but I can't know how God makes choices. We make choices in time , does that mean God has to? If God has no brain as such does that mean he can't think? I have no answer to these questions.

Obviously you have no answers because there exist no logical ones given the premises you have set up. So your concept of a 3 O God existing outside time is illogical. What makes you think God is even capable of making choices?

As to the other issue, vistesd said it better than me (as usual):

One other point: in Christian theology, God is creator—omnipotent or not. Therefore, time T(0) generally represents the inception of the created cosmos. The real view seems to be that God knew/knows every future E at some (“eternal”?) time T(0-t),* and then created/creates the cosmos such that that perfect foreknowledge is realized. Therefore, I find it hard to see, under that model, how everything—including what I will and will not will, and whether such willing is efficacious in this or that case—is not determined, precisely by God’s act of creation (rather like knuckling over that first domino).



You responding to that would be interesting.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Obviously he couldn't. But universal omniscience says he knew what marauder would do in 2008 WHEN he created the universe. He also knew what God would do in 2008 WHEN he created the universe. Explain what part "free will" plays in this.

I think there are two separate points here. Once the universe is created then (in my imagination) I see God as both being able to see things unfold in time (in Jesus) but also know what marauder does in 2008. But his knowledge of marauder's choices in 2008 depend on marauder choosing something in 2008. In one sense he knows your future but in another he is still dependent on your choice in that given moment in time. The hard thing for us is to understandd how it can be both and not an either or thing.

If I had a time machine similar paradoxes would be thrown up. 5 dimensions (if it existed) would be bound to seem darn weird to us .

Originally posted by no1marauder
Obviously you have no answers because there exist no logical ones given the premises you have set up. So your concept of a 3 O God existing outside time is illogical. What makes you think God is even capable of making choices?

As to the other issue, vistesd said it better than me (as usual):

One other point: in Christian th ...[text shortened]... kling over that first domino).



You responding to that would be interesting.

The concept of "foreknowledge " is your first mistake because it places God in time and not in eternity. Do you really think that I believe that God is currently "foreseeing" my future like some cosmic psychic?

BTW- I don't agree with the model you presented and I don't think it's a necessary model to be a theist.

My model is that God never foresees anything at all. This may sound strange at first but it's actually logical if you think about it. God does not foresee what I will choose tomorrow , he's there right now watching me choose. If I had a time machine I would never need to make predictions , or "foresee" things , I would just go there and see what happens for myself. However , if free will existed I could still get surprised in that present moment and return to today and just know what HAD happened. I would not be a "foreseer" of the future but a watcher of the present.

Originally posted by knightmeister
The concept of "foreknowledge " is your first mistake because it places God in time and not in eternity. Do you really think that I believe that God is currently "foreseeing" my future like some cosmic psychic?

Where did that come from; it certainly has no relation to what I posted!

I'll run it by you one more time; according to your model, a 3 O God "exists outside of time". He knows everything that will ever occur in the timeline he created. He always knows and forever did know. Nothing that occurs in the timeline can ever vary from his knowledge of what happened. No human being EVER has the possibility of doing something different from what occurs in the timeline. More to the point, God himself, even though he is omnipotent, can't do anything different from what was forever to be done in the timeline.

Thus, there is no free will i.e. the ability to make different choices for either humans or for God.

EDIT: What specific objections do you have to the "model" I presented? It's based entirely on a 3 O God existing "outside of time". Which part of that are you ready to junk?

EDIT2: No it's not necessary for a theist to believe in a 3 O God. But I thought you did.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Where did that come from; it certainly has no relation to what I posted!

I'll run it by you one more time; according to your model, a 3 O God "exists outside of time". He knows everything that will ever occur in the timeline he created. He always knows and forever did know. Nothing that occurs in the timeline can ever vary from his knowl ...[text shortened]... rely on a 3 O God existing "outside of time". Which part of that are you ready to junk?

Nothing can ever vary from the timeline once it has occured but until a choice is made it is not set in the timeline yet. The past is set but the present moment is set as we go along.

In a real sense until you make that choice in 2009 then it may or may not happen. Once it has been made then it is set in time. He doesn't know everything that "will" occur , he knows what "has" occurred. You know what Hitler DID but that doesn't prove anything really because for all you know he might have done something else.