30 Mar 08
Originally posted by LemonJelloHe exists independent and outside of the causal sequence of events within the universe we call "time" . In this sense he is not restricted by the universe's property of one thing occuring after another , but this doesn't mean that there can't be a separate series of events in eternity. I don't see "time" as some great overarching thing , I only see it as a description of sequence of events in a moving universe.
I'm still not getting it. So now you claim God exists outside of time...but not really?
Think of it this way , if there did exist many parallel universes would "time" be a universal thing running through each universe or would each universe have it's own "clock" or time sequence? Could time move faster or slower in each one. Could there be many different "times". ??
30 Mar 08
Originally posted by LemonJelloWhen I say God exists outside or independent of time , I mean time as we know it in this universe. He exists beyond the 4 dimensions of this universe.
[b]The real question here is not "is an eternal omniscient God incompatible with free will? " but " could an eternal being exist?"
Good, let's talk about this question. I think that your God conception is incoherent and that such a God simply cannot exist.
When you talk of God as "eternal", I understand that to mean substantively two things. ...[text shortened]... it would not be compatible with the agency you otherwise ascribe to God.[/b]
The problem with your conception of time is this. If there ever was a point where time did not exist and you claim that nothing can change without time then how did the universe itself "start"?? If nothing can happen without time then how did the universe happen? You could say that the universe has always existed which could make it eternal? Or you could say that the universe just started by itself? How did the universe change from nothing to something with no time being there? If time was there how did it get there , if one needs time in order for change to occur?
30 Mar 08
Originally posted by no1marauderI don't believe God is totally ominpotent or omniscient in reality. I believe he could be but chooses not to be , and that's the difference.
Then you don't believe in a 3 O God. You don't believe in a God who is either omnipotent or omniscient.
KM: I don't believe that God knew exactly what would happen if he created the universe the way it is.
If you can't see that this sentence makes no sense whatsoever if you believe, as you do, that God "exists outside of time" then you are hopelessly confused by your own beliefs.
God has chosen to hand over some control of the universe to us and to give us free will. This means that we may surprise him and do some things that he doesn't like very much. The fact that he chose to do this makes him less than omnipotent , omniscient etc . Mind you he could choose to take back his power at any moment.
30 Mar 08
Originally posted by LemonJelloYou missed the point didn't you. The point is that whatever model is true , determinism, compatabilism , free will , anything for that matter - if I have a time machine and I travel to 2011 I WILL know what choices you are making in 2011. Period.
[b]In short , whether compatibilism is true or free will is true has no bearing on me and my time machine or my knowledge.
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I don't really know whether to laugh or cry when you just habitually cast compatibilism in diametric opposition to [i]free wil ...[text shortened]... on that particular point). It just blows my mind. Whatever, this is off topic. Moving on...[/b]
The fact that I can transcend time in my time machine means I have no need of ANY model for my knowledge. I do not need to "work out" what you "might do" or "predict" your choices "in advance" or set in place any causal determined sequences of events ---- I just go to 2011 and sit back and watch!!!!!
Once you understand why this point is significant you will be on the way to understanding why free will and a time transcendent omniscient God are not incompatible. Free will or no free will - it doesn't matter -God is already watching your 2011 choices.
30 Mar 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterThere are no moments to an entity that exists outside of time. You remain confused in your own conceptual framework.
I don't believe God is totally ominpotent or omniscient in reality. I believe he could be but chooses not to be , and that's the difference.
God has chosen to hand over some control of the universe to us and to give us free will. This means that we may surprise him and do some things that he doesn't like very much. The fact that he chose to do this ...[text shortened]... omnipotent , omniscient etc . Mind you he could choose to take back his power at any moment.
30 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderHe could, I suppose, have written in a limited duration to our free will, in the middle of the "time code"
There are no moments to an entity that exists outside of time. You remain confused in your own conceptual framework.
"IF Time>X THEN FreeWill=OFF"
If that's the case then he's still inserting that code in, because there is no "time" for him.
He's also still causing the Flood, still making man, and currently executing the End Times...while hanging on the cross.
30 Mar 08
Originally posted by no1marauderWhat is time? Does time exist in only our universe? Is there only one type of time? If parallel universes exist does time run faster or slower in these universes? Would it be the same time as our time? Or is there one huge newtonian clock that nothing can escape?
There are no moments to an entity that exists outside of time. You remain confused in your own conceptual framework.
Until you can answer these questions its impossible to be so catagorical as you are being. When I say that God exists outside of time I mean that he is not trapped or constrained by time as we are. We have to wait for a sequence of events to unfold in our timeline/universe to find out things , God does not.
30 Mar 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterSince it is YOUR assertion that God exists "outside time", it is up to you to come up with a definition of time. The idea of a universal, Newtonian type time did not survive Relativity.
What is time? Does time exist in only our universe? Is there only one type of time? If parallel universes exist does time run faster or slower in these universes? Would it be the same time as our time? Or is there one huge newtonian clock that nothing can escape?
Until you can answer these questions its impossible to be so catagorical as you are ...[text shortened]... t for a sequence of events to unfold in our timeline/universe to find out things , God does not.
30 Mar 08
Originally posted by no1marauderI don't think time exists as such . I think time is a description of what we conceptualise as the 4th dimension. Time in this universe consists of a sequence of events that occur resulting from causality. God exists outside the time sequences we know of in this universe. He can be in 2010 without having to experience 2009 first .
Since it is YOUR assertion that God exists "outside time", it is up to you to come up with a definition of time. The idea of a universal, Newtonian type time did not survive Relativity.
30 Mar 08
Originally posted by no1maraudernot everyone accepts that the concept of universal time has somehow "died", relativity notwithstanding
Since it is YOUR assertion that God exists "outside time", it is up to you to come up with a definition of time. The idea of a universal, Newtonian type time did not survive Relativity.
30 Mar 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterSo God is exempt from causality? He can't cause events?
I don't think time exists as such . I think time is a description of what we conceptualise as the 4th dimension. Time in this universe consists of a sequence of events that occur resulting from causality. God exists outside the time sequences we know of in this universe. He can be in 2010 without having to experience 2009 first .
30 Mar 08
Originally posted by no1marauderNo No. I am only saying that God is not trapped or stuck within the causality of THIS universe. As a theist I do not see the causality or time of this universe as being some kind of supreme all encompassing causality.
So God is exempt from causality? He can't cause events?
God is not restricted by this universe because the universe is his creation. It would be illogical for him to be stuck within the very causality and time he had brought into being.
For all I know there may be a form of eternal causality and time which is nothing to do with this universe. It's impossible to know.
