03 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThats because they think all Paul said is that faith alone will save them. Paul also spoke alot about charity and giving and works. The early church often shared their possessions among their church members :
It seems that basically it comes down to following the teachings of Jesus vs. following the teachings of Paul. Many seem to prefer to believe the teachings of Paul.
Acts 2 : 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
03 Jul 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadRight now in the thread 'Calling out ThinkofOne' Smoothecowboy seems to be implying that the words of Christ were only applicable to the Jews up until the time of the tribulation ... which happened in about AD70. Im trying to get him to give some details.
I never heard that before. Do you have any references or a poster who agrees with you?
I always thought that the focus on Pauls writing was because Jesus' words were rather too hard to follow. I mean how many Christians actually give up all their belongings and follow Christ? Much easier to say "well were all sinners and we will make it to heaven if we simply believe in Jesus".
A couple years ago Checkbaiter told me that after day of pentecost Paul and the apostles became the authority since much more was revealed to them. Christ (he claimed) did not know very much.
03 Jul 08
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYes , I am coming closer to seeing this now. I understand the importance of following his ways. Jesus commands that we follow the will of God. I am troubled by this though. What happens if I make a mistake? I want to feel assured of salvation and trust in God's love. I don't want to be abandoned by God in the final hour.
Jesus teaches that one must follow the will of God, i.e., not continue to sin, in order to "be saved"/"have eternal life"/"enter heaven"/ etc.
Glad to hear you no longer have an argument with this.
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven... Depart from m he house forever;"
May you continue to seek to understand the teachings of Jesus.
I can on occasions become unreasonably angry with my children for a few seconds when I am tired and they are playing me up or damaging things I value (eg- my cds) . I know this is less than the 100% compassion that is required for salvation so what should I do? My feeling is that even with maximum effort on my part I am still capable of mistakes and I have no certainty or trust in myself that I can attain this 100% perfection that Jesus asks for. He was always patient with children but I find I can only do this most of the time because my humanity lets me down.
I also feel the same about sexual attraction. I don't know if I can guarantee that I will never ever give out a stray glance of desire at a beautiful woman. This also applies to many other areas where I aspire to live a good life of truth , compassion and holiness.
I am committed to following Jesus but I don't know if I can reach perfection. Have you any advice for me? Would God understand this ? Or would he throw away the key if I sinned just once more in my life? Am I condemned to live my life in fear? My nightmare scenario is that I spend the next 40 years doing loads of great things in the will of God and helping the poor , loving my enemies etc etc only to find that on the day before I die I have spent 3 seconds gazing with desire at a fine looking woman and wrecked my entire salvation.
It's very troubling. I can't see any of us making it to be honest. Human nature seems to be too flawed to attain 100% perfection , I imagine many of us will follow Jesus very earnestly and maybe a few will reach 99% but 100%? Surely there is some provision for confessing sin and forgiveness from God? Is it enough that I committ myself 100% and try and learn from my mistakes as best I can? Or am I to live constantly in fear of hellfire? Help me understand your Jesus. Tell me how you have attained such a level of perfection that you can follow Jesus imaculately without any fear of losing your salvation?
03 Jul 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneok, Here is an extintion of one of the passages you try to use.
Jesus states that you cannot continue to sin and "be saved"/"have eternal life"/"enter heaven"/ etc. He says this several times and in several different ways. Jesus does not say to follow the Bible. Jesus does not say to follow Paul. Jesus does not say to "harmonize" his teachings with those of others. Jesus says to follow Him/His word/His commandments wh ...[text shortened]... t a beautiful message of truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. His words ring true.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
From Mat 7:15-23, Christ is talking about false prophets who profess to be of God when infact they are not, they are working iniquity.
Mat 7:24-27 explains that those who hear the Word and do the works are those who are founded on a rock(Christ). They hear because of Christ. Those are the ones who will do the work of the Lord. Notice it says "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine,..". The whosoever is refering to the ones whos ears are open to hear him. For there are none good, but one, that is God. There are none who seeks after the Lord because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
If the natural man is unable to "hear" the Word, then they are not able to do the works of the Lord unless Christ quickens them to spiritual life, ie, born again.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved😉
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Now, If a man is dead in sin and can not seek anything of the Lord, How can he do the good works Jesus talks about without first quickened by Christ to spiritual life?
Remember when Lazarus died? Christ quickened him to life to show us that a dead man can do nothing unless he is quickened to life. Lazarus could not come out of the grave and walk on his own. Christ had to quicken him to life first.
If Christ has to first quicken someone in order for them to be able to do the works, then salvation is not baced on works, lest any should boast. Works come after salvation because of it. Works are the result of salvation, not the cause.
03 Jul 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadOriginally posted by Rajk999
I never heard that before. Do you have any references or a poster who agrees with you?
I always thought that the focus on Pauls writing was because Jesus' words were rather too hard to follow. I mean how many Christians actually give up all their belongings and follow Christ? Much easier to say "well were all sinners and we will make it to heaven if we simply believe in Jesus".
Im begining to realise that some Christian sects wrongly preach that the teachings of Christ were not applicable after the Day of Pentecost when the apostles received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Hence the emphasis on Paul's teachings.
Originally posted by twhitehead
I never heard that before. Do you have any references or a poster who agrees with you?
I always thought that the focus on Pauls writing was because Jesus' words were rather too hard to follow. I mean how many Christians actually give up all their belongings and follow Christ? Much easier to say "well were all sinners and we will make it to heaven if we simply believe in Jesus".
You would be amazed at the reason why Paul played a dominant role in the formation of the Christian church in the first century.
03 Jul 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhy is it about what you want?
Yes , I am coming closer to seeing this now. I understand the importance of following his ways. Jesus commands that we follow the will of God. I am troubled by this though. What happens if I make a mistake? I want to feel assured of salvation and trust in God's love. I don't want to be abandoned by God in the final hour.
I can on occasions become ...[text shortened]... erfection that you can follow Jesus imaculately without any fear of losing your salvation?
03 Jul 08
Originally posted by pritybettaIs it your position that the words of Paul supercede the words of Jesus?
ok, Here is an extintion of one of the passages you try to use.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrup ...[text shortened]... Works come after salvation because of it. Works are the result of salvation, not the cause.
03 Jul 08
3 edits
Originally posted by PinkFloydThe words of Jesus are the words of Jesus. It's unfortunate that the "Christian faith" has largely abandoned the teachings of Jesus, thus building a house without a foundation.
As I was taught in Sunday School, the teachings of Paul ARE the teachings of Jesus. All Biblical Scripture is good and right for teaching of the Christian faith.
Luke 6:46-49
Why do you call me,'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?
Everyone who comes to me, and hears my words, and does them, I will show you who he is like.
He is like a man building a house, who dug and went deep, and laid a foundation on the rock. When a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it was founded on the rock.
But he who hears, and doesn't do, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.
04 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by pritybettaIf I recall correctly, you said, "no". However, your posts seem to indicate otherwise. Everything seems to be viewed through the lens of Paul. Quite frankly, I'm also still having trouble trying to decide where you sit with regards to continuing to sin and "eternal life"/"heaven", etc. You seemed to waffle quite a bit with that one.
You had asked me this once before, and I had answered it then.
04 Jul 08
Originally posted by josephwFeel free to amaze me - if you know the reason and are willing to share.
You would be amazed at the reason why Paul played a dominant role in the formation of the Christian church in the first century.
Keep in mind of course that my post was not talking about the formation of the Christian Church in the first century.
My guess at the reason why Paul played a dominant role back then was the fact that he wanted Christianity to become available to non-Jews. Again, that is a much more acceptable message to people today (non-Jews especially) just as it was then. Jesus on the other hand never made any such moves, being a Jew himself he obviously thought that the Jews were Gods chosen people and everyone else didn't really matter that much.
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04 Jul 08
Originally posted by pritybettaIf you put too many pesticides on a good tree, does it become bad? Is Jesus an organic gardener? Why can't trees that are bad produce good fruit? Sometimes, domestication takes bad fruit and makes it good, or the tree produces no fruit but useful sap, or is poisonous in some ways but contains medicines that can be very good. Bad metaphor, I maintain.
You are looking at it all wrong. The good trees are the ones that bear fruit that can be eaten, the bad trees are the ones that bear fruit that is poisonous and/or deadly.
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04 Jul 08
Originally posted by checkbaiterThat might redeem it. I'll have to think a bit more about it.
You are very close to what I think the bible teaches. We will have a sinful nature until Christ returns. We also have the new nature forever. So for now, we have two natures. As some one once said, it is like two dogs fighting inside of me. When asked which one wins, the answer was....the one you feed. We can feed the sin nature with the things of the wo ...[text shortened]... e other while we await the return of Christ. Thus the differing levels of "spirituality"....🙂