12 May 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesGod knows all things, sees all things.... don't presume to know or understand God, for nobody ever will, that is why we will have eternity to contemplate Him.
If it is not already decided whether he will go to hell, how can God know whether he will go to hell?
God knows whether you will come to Him or not, but you do not know whether you will turn to Him or not..... perhaps in some small way, what I am communicating here will help someone to open their eyes to this reality
12 May 06
Originally posted by damage79So if scottishinnz will ultimately go to hell, God knows that, and has always known that, correct?
God knows all things, sees all things.... don't presume to know or understand God, for nobody ever will, that is why we will have eternity to contemplate Him.
God knows whether you will come to Him or not, but you do not know whether you will turn to Him or not..... perhaps in some small way, what I am communicating here will help someone to open their eyes to this reality
And God is at no time uncertain about whether scottishinnz will ultimately go to hell, correct?
12 May 06
1 edit
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesGod does know all things, He is outside of time. We cannot presume to know what will happen in the future that may affect the destination we had forseen for ourselves. But God always has known our eternal destiny, all He can do is provide oppurtunities for us to exercise free will in choosing Him, in His mercy He gives us a multitude of chances to do so.
So if scottishinnz will ultimately go to hell, God knows that, and has always known that, correct?
And God is at no time uncertain about whether scottishinnz will ultimately go to hell, correct?
This may sound wishy-washy, but God gives us chances to turn our heart back to Him, yet just because He knows our destiny does not mean that He controls our destiny. We have choices to make which carry eternal consequences
12 May 06
9 edits
Originally posted by damage79Consider two cases: God is certain that scottishinnz will go to hell, and God is certain that scottishinnz will not go to hell. (Note that under our presumption that God is certain about scottishinnz's future, this exhausts the logical space of cases to consider.)
God does know all things, He is outside of time. We cannot presume to know what will happen in the future that may affect the destination we had forseen for ourselves. But God always has known our eternal destiny, all He can do is provide oppurtunities for us to exercise free will in choosing Him, in His mercy He gives us a multitude of chances to do so. ...[text shortened]... not mean that He controls our destiny. We have choices to make which carry eternal consequences
Case 1: God is certain that scottishinnz will go to hell.
Assume that God is inerrant; for anything that he knows, it is not possible for things to actualize otherwise. God's knowledge always actualizes and is never contradicted. In this case, is it impossible for scottishinnz to not go to hell. Any efforts he makes to avoid that fate are futile, for it if they were fruitful, it must be the case that God was wrong, which would violate our assumption. Thus, scottishinnz cannot make a successful effort to not go to hell in this case.
Case 2: God is certain that scottishinnz will not go to hell.
Assume, as above, that God is inerrant. This certainty then means that the knowledge will be actualized, and scottishinnz will in fact not go to hell. It would be impossible for him to go to hell, for that would make God wrong. Thus, scottishinnz cannot make a successful effort to go to hell in this case.
In all cases, it is impossible for scottishinnz to contradict God's knowledge. Thus, scottishinnz cannot control his destination - he cannot escape going where God knows he will go. Any efforts that he makes toward his ultimate destination are either futile or superfluous - they cannot possibly accomplish anything with respect to choosing the final destination.
If God knew before scottishinnz came into the world that he would go to hell, he created a person who cannot possibly avoid going to hell, which follows directly from Case 1 above.
As a corollary, for each person in hell, God knew before that person came into being that that person was bound to go to hell, that that person could not possibly have avoided hell.. Everybody in hell had his hands tied by God's knowledge, as it is impossible to contradict what God knows. This follows directly from Case 1.
12 May 06
4 edits
Originally posted by damage79This is just a trite slogan of no relevant consequence.
He is outside of time.
God obviously interacts with the universe at distinct points in the universe's stream of time. The universe received his covenant with Noah before it received baby Jesus.
Consider this scenario. Suppose as I go to bed tonight, I deliberate about what to eat for breakfast tomorrow - eggs or pancakes. After I go to sleep, God could cause an inscription to materialize on my refrigerator door - "You have chosen eggs" or "You have chosen pancakes," according to what he knows I will choose.
When I wake up, I employ my putative free will and decide what to eat. When I go to the kitchen with my decision in mind, under our assumptions, is it logically possible that I will have chosen something contrary to the divine inscription I will see on the door?
12 May 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesIn all these scenarios, you twist your words to exclaim that you are powerless, that God is railroading you into your destiny whether you like it or not. Yet you have the power to make decisions, and must accept that the decisions you make have outcomes, either positive or negative.... God knows these choices you will make, and your attitude toward Him. His knowing this does not invalidate the choices you make.
As a corollary, for each person in hell, God knew before that person came into being that that person was bound to go to hell, that that person could not possibly have avoided hell.. Everybody in hell had his hands tied by God's knowledge, as it is impossible to contradict what God knows.
You are responsible for the state of your soul.... don't blame God for choices you make
12 May 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesNo, in case 1, God knows scottishinnz is going to Hell, this reality does not come to be becasue God knows it, but because of a series of choices scottishinnz made to reject God.
Are you saying that in Case 1 - the case in which God knows scottishinnz will go to hell - that it is possible for scottishinnz to not go to hell?
God knows every decision we are going to make, but this does not mean that His heart is not acheing with the knowledge of our damnation. He would wish that all people would join Him in heaven, but the rebellion against Him that is in the human heart leads people to make choices that lead to Hell.
The fact that God knows this, does not mean that He ordained it this way, our free will lead us down that path
12 May 06
Originally posted by damage79I'm not claiming that God's knowledge is the cause. I'm claiming only that God's knowledge logically precludes any alternatives. Do you agree with this?
No, in case 1, God knows scottishinnz is going to Hell, this reality does not come to be becasue God knows it
To deny it is to assert that something that contradicts God's knowledge could possibly actualize.
12 May 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesGod's knowledge is infallible, nothing that contradicts God's knowledge could actualise - I agree with that statement
I'm not claiming that God's knowledge is the cause. I'm claiming only that God's knowledge logically precludes any alternatives. Do you agree with this?
To deny it is to assert that something that contradicts God's knowledge could possibly actualize.
12 May 06
1 edit
Originally posted by damage79Excellent.
NO, he is outside of time, so there is no reference for change
I am going to keep a list of claims that you have endorsed:
1) Nothing that contradicts God's knowledge could actualize.
2) God's knowledge does not change.
Next question: In light of (2), for each person that God knows is in hell, did there ever exist an instant in the universe's time stream at which God did not know that that person would end up in hell? For example, when God gave the Ten Commandments, did he know that that person would end up in hell?
12 May 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesThere was never an instant when God did not know that person's eternal destiny (even though He wished them to choose otherwise)
Excellent.
I am going to keep a list of claims that you have endorsed:
1) Nothing that contradicts God's knowledge could actualize.
2) God's knowledge does not change.
Next question: In light of (2), for each person that God knows is in hell, did there ever exist an instant in the universe's time stream at which God did not know that that p ...[text shortened]... ample, when God gave the Ten Commandments, did he know that that person would end up in hell?
12 May 06
1 edit
Originally posted by damage79Well, I'm not sure how it makes sense for God to wish since he has no reference for change, but anyway...
There was never an instant when God did not know that person's eternal destiny (even though He wished them to choose otherwise)
1) Nothing that contradicts God's knowledge could actualize.
2) God's knowledge does not change.
3) For each person in hell, there was never an instant when God did not know that person's destiny was hell.
Next question: In light of (3), for some person in hell, at the instant that person was born, did God know that person's destiny was hell?