12 May 06
3 edits
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesSome adjustments so that we are both on the same page as to how I am reading the questions:
This remains in dispute:
F2) At each instant that God knows that person will go to hell, it is impossible for that person to successfully choose to go to heaven, for that would actualize a contradiction to God's knowledge.
You agree that (1), which means you agree that whatever God knows cannot be contradicted. At any instant in the universe, e (F2) to be simply the denial of the conjunction of (A) and (B), making the dichotomy clear.)[/b]
"F2) At each instant that God knows that person will go to hell, it is impossible for that person to successfully choose to go to heaven, for that would actualize a contradiction to God's knowledge."
- God knows that person will go to hell, because He has already seen and heard all the choices that person will/has make/made, so there is no contradiction to God's knowledge
"You agree that (1), which means you agree that whatever God knows cannot be contradicted. At any instant in the universe, such as when God gave the Ten Commandments, if God knows that P is the case, it is impossible for a person to make choices that would lead to P not being the case."
- If God knows that P is the case, then that person has/will make choices that lead to P being the case
"In particular, if it some instant God knows that a person is going to hell, at that instant it is impossible for that person to make a choice that would lead to him not going to hell."
- as explained above, God knows becasue that person has made the choices that lead to hell
(A) and (B) are dependent on eachother, God does not arbitrarily choose heaven or hell. God knows where you are destined, and (from God's perspective) that person has already made the decisions (of their own free will) that take them to that destiny
Sorry if this is too much writing for you, but your logical structure was holding some assumptions which were skewing the discussion
12 May 06
Originally posted by damage79You're, perhaps willingly, missing the point. The point is that he creates someone with full knowledge they'll go to hell.
F2) At each instant that God knows that person will go to hell, it is impossible for that person to successfully choose to go to heaven, for that would actualize a contradiction to God's knowledge.
- God knows that person will go to hell, because He has already seen and heard all the choices that person will/has make/made, so there is no contradiction t ...[text shortened]... ou, but your logical structure was holding some assumptions which were skewing the discussion
12 May 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzHE knows you are going to Hell, because YOU make choices that lead you there.
You're, perhaps willingly, missing the point. The point is that he creates someone with full knowledge they'll go to hell.
Here is a couple of scenarios:
Scenario 1
I am twenty years old, I belief that I am going to Hell because God created me with that destiny. A number of years later, I hear that God has nothing but love in His heart for me. I choose to follow Jesus Christ, because He died so that I may live and have a relationship with God. I now believe I am going to Heaven.
From God's perspective I was always going to Heaven
Scenario 2
I am twenty years old, I belief that I am going to Hell because God created me with that destiny. A number of years later, I hear that God has nothing but love in His heart for me. I choose not to follow Jesus Christ, and I continue on with the same belief that I am going to hell.
From God's perspective I was always going to Hell
You make choices, you are given opportunities (you have one right now)
Don't blame God for your choice, just because He knows what you will decide, does NOt mean that He is making your decisions for you.
I am telling you right now that God loves you, Jesus died for you, so that you might have a relationship with God.
The choice you make now is the most critical of your life, you have until the day you die to make the right one.... that is God's mercy at work
12 May 06
1 edit
Originally posted by damage79I just have one question for you. Same as scottish I suppose. How come, if God knows I'm going to hell from the start (he knows what my choice will be), did he create me in the first place? And how is that love?
HE knows you are going to Hell, because YOU make choices that lead you there.
To create someone, knowing full well what choice that someone will make, which will lead to an eternity of suffering for that someone, doesn't sound a whole lot like love to me.
Well, that's two questions and a statement. I never were good at these things. I just can't predict what the outcome of my writing will be.
12 May 06
You are all forgetting the one important logical contradiction:
Originally posted by damage79
God knows all things, sees all things.... don't presume to know or understand God, for nobody ever will, that is why we will have eternity to contemplate Him.
contradicts all the other statements which claim that you know and understand at least some very far reaching things about God.
There is also no satisfactory way of explaining why God wants people to use thier free will to choose Heaven or Hell. If heaven is trully better than hell then why doesnt God just send us there without asking us? Why do we have to 'deserve it' to get there? Why must we believe in God to get there? etc etc. Other than following instructions from a book called the Bible there is no logic in any of it.
12 May 06
Originally posted by twhiteheadYou can't get logic from an illogical book, and there is a satisfactory way of explaining, however that ain't my cross to bear today.
You are all forgetting the one important logical contradiction:
Originally posted by damage79
[b]God knows all things, sees all things.... don't presume to know or understand God, for nobody ever will, that is why we will have eternity to contemplate Him.
contradicts all the other statements which claim that you know and understand at le ...[text shortened]... ther than following instructions from a book called the Bible there is no logic in any of it.[/b]
12 May 06
1 edit
Originally posted by damage79Of course, you on the other hand are filled with the false pride of your ignorance, believing that you know what you are talking about.
That is free will in action (even spoken in ignorance, and a wrong image of God), and God will mourn as He judges you and you will spend eternity in Hell
You don't.
12 May 06
3 edits
Originally posted by damage79But you endorsed every assumption upon which my argument was based! And my argument from those mutually endorsed assumptions was nothing more than an instance of an elementary and formally valid syllogism, which means that it is valid, which means that its conclusion is true when its premises are true, which means you can't consistently endorse the premises you endorsed AND deny the conclusion.
Sorry if this is too much writing for you, but your logical structure was holding some assumptions which were skewing the discussion
We were doing so well. It's a shame you had to spoil it by introducing equivocations, emotion and irrelevancies. I'm afraid it will be fruitless for me to continue in this discussion with you.
If anybody else is willing to proceed in a reasonable manner, please let me know and we may pick up where damage left off.
13 May 06
Originally posted by damage79Look, you're not getting it. I accept that it's my choices that determine whether I go to hell or not, I'm not denying that and in fact i don't give a damn about that.
HE knows you are going to Hell, because YOU make choices that lead you there.
Here is a couple of scenarios:
Scenario 1
I am twenty years old, I belief that I am going to Hell because God created me with that destiny. A number of years later, I hear that God has nothing but love in His heart for me. I choose to follow Jesus Christ, because He died ...[text shortened]... r life, you have until the day you die to make the right one.... that is God's mercy at work
The point is that an omnipotent god already knows before he creates me that choices I WILL make. He already knows before he creates me whether or not i WILL go to hell. And he creates me anyway.
He creates me in full knowledge I'll make the choices that lead me to hell. There is no way that I can do something he doesn't already know that I'll do. I can't escape his knowledge. Which means that everything I do is pre-determined.
Thus, God creates me to go to hell. Some "love" that it.
29 May 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzConsult the 'free will ' thread for an argument on why your actions are not predetermined as you say.
Look, you're not getting it. I accept that it's my choices that determine whether I go to hell or not, I'm not denying that and in fact i don't give a damn about that.
The point is that an omnipotent god already knows before he creates me that choices I WILL make. He already knows before he creates me whether or not i WILL go to hell. And he creat ...[text shortened]... g I do is pre-determined.
Thus, God creates me to go to hell. Some "love" that it.