12 May 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesFirst addressing "wished" perhaps "longed" is a better word, but He honors free will to choose, so his own longings do not affect our destiny
Well, I'm not sure how it makes sense for God to wish since he has no reference for change, but anyway...
1) Nothing that contradicts God's knowledge could actualize.
2) God's knowledge does not change.
3) For each person in hell, there was never an instant when God did not know that person's destiny was hell.
Next question: In light of (3), ...[text shortened]... in hell, at the instant that person was born, did God know that person's destiny was hell?
In answer to your next question, we seem to be repeating ourselves, but I suspect you're building up to this for a reason, but Yes God always knew, even at the instant they were born, where they were detsined to end up.
12 May 06
Originally posted by damage79I just want to go in baby steps so that we always agree on the mutually endorsed premises.
First addressing "wished" perhaps "longed" is a better word, but He honors free will to choose, so his own longings do not affect our destiny
In answer to your next question, we seem to be repeating ourselves, but I suspect you're building up to this for a reason, but Yes God always knew, even at the instant they were born, where they were detsined to end up.
1) Nothing that contradicts God's knowledge could actualize.
2) God's knowledge does not change.
3) For each person in hell, there was never an instant when God did not know that person's destiny was hell.
4) For each person in hell, even at the instant that person was born, God knew that that person would go to hell.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I will presume that you also endorse:
5) For each person in hell, at no instant in that person's life did God not know that that person would go to hell.
Sound OK?
12 May 06
Originally posted by damage79But if He's omnipotent and He created me he must have created me knowing I'll never believe. Therefore, I was created to roast in hell. Or god's not omnipotent, which is it to be??
No, God created you so that you might have a close relationship with Him, you choose not to. You are not already damned, as long as you have breath you can turn back to Jesus and ask forgiveness. He is ever merciful.
The fact that you do not believe it doesn't change that fact
12 May 06
Originally posted by scottishinnzGod created you to have relationship with Himself, but He wanted you do do it willingly, therefore free will comes into play. You make the choices, He knows the choices you are going to make, so He knows that you will choose not to believe.
But if He's omnipotent and He created me he must have created me knowing I'll never believe. Therefore, I was created to roast in hell. Or god's not omnipotent, which is it to be??
He did not create you for Hell, you chose it, take some responsibility for your life, and your eternity
12 May 06
3 edits
Originally posted by damage79Oh man, there's little I love more than a reasonable discussion. We're really getting somewhere now.
OK
1) Nothing that contradicts God's knowledge could actualize.
2) God's knowledge does not change.
3) For each person in hell, there was never an instant when God did not know that person's destiny was hell.
4) For each person in hell, even at the instant that person was born, God knew that that person would go to hell.
5) For each person in hell, at no instant in that person's life did God not know that that person would go to hell.
We now agree on two facts about each person in hell:
F1) From (5), we know that God knew at every instant in that person's life that that person would go to hell.
F2) From (1), at each instant that God knows that person will go to hell, it is impossible for that person to successfully choose to go to heaven, for that would actualize a contradiction to God's knowledge.
We deduce from (F1) and (F2) that at no instant in that person's life was it possible for him to successfully choose to go to heaven.
Agreed?
12 May 06
Originally posted by damage79Indeed, the decision I make choose where I go after I die, Heaven or Hell. God knows what I'll do. The thing is God specifically created me with absolte foreknowledge of what I will do that will send me to the hot place. He specifically created me, knowing that I will go to hell.
No, in case 1, God knows scottishinnz is going to Hell, this reality does not come to be becasue God knows it, but because of a series of choices scottishinnz made to reject God.
God knows every decision we are going to make, but this does not mean that His heart is not acheing with the knowledge of our damnation. He would wish that all people would ...[text shortened]... God knows this, does not mean that He ordained it this way, our free will lead us down that path
12 May 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesYour deductions are awry
We now agree on two facts about each person in hell:
F1) From (5), we know that God knew at every instant in that person's life that that person would go to hell.
F2) From (1), at each instant that God knows that person will go to hell, it is impossible for that person to successfully choose to go to heaven, for that would actualize a contradiction ...[text shortened]... that person's life was it possible for him to successfully choose to go to heaven.
Agreed?[/b]
God knows all the choices that person will make, and it is on that basis that the eternal destiny is decided.
You are inadvertantly, when putting God outside of time, putting Him before time and giving Him the role of watching us live our lives. You could just as validly put God at the end of time looking back. It is effectively the same thing from God's perspective.
When looking at it from the perspective described above, we decide our destiny by the choices we make, God has just seen our choices and allocated our destiny accordingly
12 May 06
Originally posted by damage79Whoa, what the hell happened? We were doing so well.
Your deductions are awry
God knows all the choices that person will make, and it is on that basis that the eternal destiny is decided.
You are inadvertantly, when putting God outside of time, putting Him before time and giving Him the role of watching us live our lives. You could just as validly put God at the end of time looking back. It is effec ...[text shortened]... iny by the choices we make, God has just seen our choices and allocated our destiny accordingly
1) Nothing that contradicts God's knowledge could actualize.
2) God's knowledge does not change.
3) For each person in hell, there was never an instant when God did not know that person's destiny was hell.
4) For each person in hell, even at the instant that person was born, God knew that that person would go to hell.
5) For each person in hell, at no instant in that person's life did God not know that that person would go to hell.
For each person in hell:
F1) God knew at every instant in that person's life that that person would go to hell.
F2) At each instant that God knows that person will go to hell, it is impossible for that person to successfully choose to go to heaven, for that would actualize a contradiction to God's knowledge.
Let us get back on track.
Do you still endorse (1) through (5)?
Do you endorse (F1) and (F2)?
12 May 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesDS,
Whoa, what the hell happened? We were doing so well.
1) Nothing that contradicts God's knowledge could actualize.
2) God's knowledge does not change.
3) For each person in hell, there was never an instant when God did not know that person's destiny was hell.
4) For each person in hell, even at the instant that person was born, God knew that th ...[text shortened]... s get back on track.
Do you still endorse (1) through (5)?
Do you endorse (F1) and (F2)?
Why not read the first Chapter of 23 minutes in hell?
You can read it online if you have Adobe Reader so why not google it?
12 May 06
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesI endorse 1-5 and F1, I disagree with F2
Whoa, what the hell happened? We were doing so well.
1) Nothing that contradicts God's knowledge could actualize.
2) God's knowledge does not change.
3) For each person in hell, there was never an instant when God did not know that person's destiny was hell.
4) For each person in hell, even at the instant that person was born, God knew that th ...[text shortened]... s get back on track.
Do you still endorse (1) through (5)?
Do you endorse (F1) and (F2)?
as I mentioned before, God is looking back on our choices unto death, and it is from that place that he makes the heaven/hell call. God has all the information before we do, His knowledge is infallible. You are putting this deduction into the realm of time, and it is twisting the deduction
12 May 06
Originally posted by RBHILLTime becomes short when I have to hold people's hands to walk them through elementary syllogisms, especially when they reneg on their endorsements.
DS,
Why not read the first Chapter of 23 minutes in hell?
You can read it online if you have Adobe Reader so why not google it?
12 May 06
Originally posted by damage79how can he be "looking back" if he's outside of time?? How can he know what we'll do before we're born if he only exists at the end of time?
I endorse 1-5 and F1, I disagree with F2
as I mentioned before, God is looking back on our choices unto death, and it is from that place that he makes the heaven/hell call. God has all the information before we do, His knowledge is infallible. You are putting this deduction into the realm of time, and it is twisting the deduction
12 May 06
3 edits
Originally posted by damage791) Nothing that contradicts God's knowledge could actualize.
I endorse 1-5 and F1, I disagree with F2
2) God's knowledge does not change.
3) For each person in hell, there was never an instant when God did not know that person's destiny was hell.
4) For each person in hell, even at the instant that person was born, God knew that that person would go to hell.
5) For each person in hell, at no instant in that person's life did God not know that that person would go to hell.
For each person in hell:
F1) God knew at every instant in that person's life that that person would go to hell.
This remains in dispute:
F2) At each instant that God knows that person will go to hell, it is impossible for that person to successfully choose to go to heaven, for that would actualize a contradiction to God's knowledge.
You agree that (1), which means you agree that whatever God knows cannot be contradicted. At any instant in the universe, such as when God gave the Ten Commandments, if God knows that P is the case, it is impossible for a person to make choices that would lead to P not being the case. In particular, if it some instant God knows that a person is going to hell, at that instant it is impossible for that person to make a choice that would lead to him not going to hell.
Do you agree? To deny this is to assert that there existed some instant in the person's life such that it was the case that both
A) God knew that person was going to hell, AND
B) It was possible for that person to make a choice that would lead to him not going to hell.
Are you asserting the conjunction of (A) and (B)? If not, you must agree with (F2), for (F2) is nothing more than the denial of the conjunction of (A) and (B).
Please, to stay on track, either limit your response to saying that you assert the conjunction of (A) and (B), you deny it and accept (F2), or you deny that the dichotomy between them is as I have stated. (If you deny the dichotomy, I am happy to redefine (F2) to be simply the denial of the conjunction of (A) and (B), making the dichotomy clear.)