To kill or not to kill: capital punishment

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Here are some thoughts:

1) Governments have legal systems, not justice systems. People are sometimes convicted of crimes they did not commit. If given a life sentence, they can be freed if new evidence proves their innocence. If executed, well...

2) Sometimes people change. They should be given a chance to repent.

3) Even if the government carri ...[text shortened]... ce. I would think that whatever he said that conflicts with his disciples would get precedence.

Two things of interest concerning the issue of Christ and capital punishment. On the one hand, he showed mercy to the woman caught in adultry who was to be stoned under Mosaic law. The other interest is Christ's silence in regards to capital punishment concerning Mosaic law that they lived under as well as the most barbaric of capital punishments under Roman law which were crusifixians among many others.

Why was Christ silent on such issues while we find ourselves concerned with them?

Originally posted by whodey
Two things of interest concerning the issue of Christ and capital punishment. On the one hand, he showed mercy to the woman caught in adultry who was to be stoned under Mosaic law. The other interest is Christ's silence in regards to capital punishment concerning Mosaic law that they lived under as well as the most barbaric of capital punishments under Roma ...[text shortened]... ny others.

Why was Christ silent on such issues while we find ourselves concerned with them?

How do you know that he was silent? If his disciples managed to write down everything he said, he sure didn't talk very much 🙂 One can only go by what was attributed to him. What was attributed to him, seems to indicate love and compassion rather than vengeance.

Originally posted by KellyJay
As I said earlier, I'm trying to grasp this debate from an atheist
point of view. The only thing I have gotten is because you don't
like it, beyond that fact, you want your views pushed upon the
system we all live by. Is that the bottom line here?
Kelly

I'm stepping part way here Kelly so forgive me if I misconstrue the argument.
From my perspective there is NO atheist point of view. As an atheist I reject the notion that a god exists and therefore reject god as the basis of any morality. This doesn't mean that I reject christian or jewish or muslim morality though, since for the most part there are many commonalities between these systems and my own views.
My view is that we should not take other life. Certainly I don't believe we should allow the state to take other life. I can only see the situation of self defence as being acceptable here.
Of course I understand the argument about someone killing my family and raping my wife and so on - and I agree, in that situation I'd be screaming for blood. Which is the very reason why I'm not and shouldn't be a part of the justice system in such an instance - my emotions and my desire for vengeance should not be a part of our system of justice, punishment and rehabilitation.
But I understand other perspectives. Just don't agree with them.
Now there's nothing atheist about any of that.

Originally posted by amannion
As an atheist, I'm reluctant to draw any ethical conclusions from the bible. My view is that capital punishment is a barbaric throwback to earlier human civilisations.

If I were to draw any conclusions I would of course choose those that suit my viewpoint - in this case that'd be Jesus and his views.

But anyone is going to do exactly the same thing - ...[text shortened]... ew. You either support state-sponsored murder (OK I'm being a bit provocative) or you don't.

If people would quit killing, then we would quit killing them.
How can you say capital punishment is a barbaric throwback? Murder is rampant in the world. What about justice? I suppose you think that is a throwback too?

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
Find out. Also, how many people are executed that were later found to be innocent?

How many innocent people have been murdered by murderers released from prison?

Originally posted by Big Mac
should governments be allowed to enforce capital punishment?
spiritually speaking, of course.
and, please provide grounds and warrants.

i am torn.
as a theist, which is a popular word on here, and as a xian theist to boot, i try to develop my social contracts and desires from the bible.

paul writes that the government is to carry the sword to defen ...[text shortened]... ave them do unto you.

prophets say that vengeance is god's. he will repay.

any thoughts?

2 Timothy 2:15

Originally posted by dottewell
This comes up again, and again, and again...

Why can't theists accept that morality doesn't require god? Why can't they accept, for example, that human beings are simply able to appreciate intrinsic value, and act accordingly?

When do you think they will start?

Originally posted by dottewell
As I said above, it might be a consequence of recognising that all life (even that of a killer) has intrinsic value, so taking life (except in certain extreme circumstances, such as self-defence) is wrong.

A murderer, once they have killed, no longer has any intrinsic value.

Originally posted by josephw
How many innocent people have been murdered by murderers released from prison?

Why do you claim that the choice is between killing murderers and releasing them? What's wrong with life in prison?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Here is something, I did not reference a book if you follow the post
I did reference evolutionary thought. So I take it than for you it is
just personal taste?
Kelly

Did you know that Evolution is also the cause of the Holocaust! No seriously, you're an idiot.

And you also are claiming that the choice is between the death penalty and release.

Originally posted by josephw
If people would quit killing, then we would quit killing them.
How can you say capital punishment is a barbaric throwback? Murder is rampant in the world. What about justice? I suppose you think that is a throwback too?

Take a look at the nations that currently execute their citizens. The only modern, industrial nation is the US. The rest are places that ... leave a bit to be desired.
I'm not talking about murder, I'm talking about state-sponsored murder.
And you're not talking about justice, you're talking about vengeance.

For those who profess to be Christians, it amazes me that the texts that define their views on the world are the Old Testament books. Jesus, who is so revered and idolised, is completely ignored. Why is this?

Originally posted by josephw
A murderer, once they have killed, no longer has any intrinsic value.

Really? Did Jesus tell you that?

Originally posted by XanthosNZ
Why do you claim that the choice is between killing murderers and releasing them? What's wrong with life in prison?

I'm ok with that. Put them away.

Originally posted by amannion
Take a look at the nations that currently execute their citizens. The only modern, industrial nation is the US. The rest are places that ... leave a bit to be desired.
I'm not talking about murder, I'm talking about state-sponsored murder.
And you're not talking about justice, you're talking about vengeance.

For those who profess to be Christians, it a ...[text shortened]... Testament books. Jesus, who is so revered and idolised, is completely ignored. Why is this?

So what is so wrong with executing murderers? One would think, as an atheist and evolutionist, you would be all for removing the more primitive types that KILL people. It's the civilized thing to do!
You obviously don't know what justice is.
As a christian I read and believe the whole bible. And Jesus wasn't the pacifist everybody tries to make him out to be. He kept the law, and that means he also was for it's enforcement.

Originally posted by dottewell
Really? Did Jesus tell you that?

You must live in a sheltered world. Have you ever been around criminals? They are unreliable, untrustworthy, and liars. They are not fit to be treated with anything like respect or dignity. Murderers, at the very least, should be locked up for life.